Osama bin Laden: Dead

[tattuchu]

They wanted him dead, not dead or alive and preferably alive? This despite the unique intelligence that could be gleaned by interrogating the top pin of the 9/11 attacks? I'm trying to figure this out. I don't see why only a shoot to kill order was given when it may have been possible to do so much more with a live specimen. A trial would have shown just how much more civlized Western values are and also it would have have allowed relatives of the victims of the various atrocities to find complete closure through a court of law.

There was a firefight, and Osama would not surrender. They shot him in the head, twice. Sounds pretty normal.

I'm sure they did want him dead, rather than alive. While there may be intelligence to be gleaned, if he was sitting alive awaiting some sort of trial it would become a circus. Dead and gone now. Done. Dust off and move on.

I dunno. I don't think interrogation would have done much good. I doubt he would have had much to say. I can't imagine him being in any way forthright

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't think anybody is saying that killing Bin Laden changed a whole lot. But goddamn it feels good to see it done. It's more a psychological milestone than anything else. And I think that's as good a reason as any to celebrate.
So there.

It's symbolically important. It says that if you fuck with us, we'll fucking kill you. And, it won't matter how long it takes or how much it costs. We'll spit on your grave. It's a very tribal message.

It's the message that was sent to the world after 9/11/01.

Example - from Woodward's book, "Bush at War" quoting CIA agent Cofer Black:

Armitage and Cofer flew to Moscow to seek help from top Russian diplomatic and intelligence officials.
"We're in a war," Black told the Russians. "We're coming. Regardless of what you do, we're coming anyway." He knew Afghanistan was in their sphere of influence and they would be queasy. "At the very least we want you to look away." He did not want the Russians trying to gum up CIA operations. "From my humble position, I think this is a historical opportunity. Let's get out of the last century into the next one."
The Russians indicated they would help and certainly not obstruct. One noted that Afghanistan was ambush heaven, where the guerrilla fighters had demolished the Russian army. "With regret," the Russian said, "I have to say that you're really going to get the hell kicked out of you".
"We're going to kill them," Black said. "We're going to put their heads on sticks. We're going to rock their world."

This is what folks need to really "get" about this war. This isn't about "who likes whom" and "whose nice to whom" and all that juvenile nonsense that makes up a lot of political discussion around internet forums. It basically boils down to - you fuck with us, and we're going to fucking kill you, and we're going to put your dead heads up on sticks for everyone to see what happens when you fuck with us.

It's the reality that humanity has not changed all that much in the last 10,000 years. Our toys and weapons have changed, but we're not inherently different than we were when vanquished enemies would literally be put up on sticks to show everyone who isn't to be trifled with.

Like it or not, that's the reality. And, killing Osama is something that others who might have similar intentions will take notice of. It's a metaphorical head on a stick.

[Hermit]

They wanted him dead, not dead or alive and preferably alive? This despite the unique intelligence that could be gleaned by interrogating the top pin of the 9/11 attacks? I'm trying to figure this out. I don't see why only a shoot to kill order was given when it may have been possible to do so much more with a live specimen. A trial would have shown just how much more civlized Western values are and also it would have have allowed relatives of the victims of the various atrocities to find complete closure through a court of law.

There was a firefight, and Osama would not surrender. They shot him in the head, twice. Sounds pretty normal.

I'm sure they did want him dead, rather than alive. While there may be intelligence to be gleaned, if he was sitting alive awaiting some sort of trial it would become a circus. Dead and gone now. Done. Dust off and move on.

I dunno. I don't think interrogation would have done much good. I doubt he would have had much to say. I can't imagine him being in any way forthright

The booty drl2 linked to, on the other hand...

[Coito ergo sum]

They wanted him dead, not dead or alive and preferably alive? This despite the unique intelligence that could be gleaned by interrogating the top pin of the 9/11 attacks? I'm trying to figure this out. I don't see why only a shoot to kill order was given when it may have been possible to do so much more with a live specimen. A trial would have shown just how much more civlized Western values are and also it would have have allowed relatives of the victims of the various atrocities to find complete closure through a court of law.

There was a firefight, and Osama would not surrender. They shot him in the head, twice. Sounds pretty normal.

I'm sure they did want him dead, rather than alive. While there may be intelligence to be gleaned, if he was sitting alive awaiting some sort of trial it would become a circus. Dead and gone now. Done. Dust off and move on.

I dunno. I don't think interrogation would have done much good. I doubt he would have had much to say. I can't imagine him being in any way forthright

Waterboarding tends to increase a person's forthrightness.

[Rum]

[.Morticia.]

They wanted him dead, not dead or alive and preferably alive? This despite the unique intelligence that could be gleaned by interrogating the top pin of the 9/11 attacks? I'm trying to figure this out. I don't see why only a shoot to kill order was given when it may have been possible to do so much more with a live specimen. A trial would have shown just how much more civlized Western values are and also it would have have allowed relatives of the victims of the various atrocities to find complete closure through a court of law.

There was a firefight, and Osama would not surrender. They shot him in the head, twice. Sounds pretty normal.

I'm sure they did want him dead, rather than alive. While there may be intelligence to be gleaned, if he was sitting alive awaiting some sort of trial it would become a circus. Dead and gone now. Done. Dust off and move on.

I dunno. I don't think interrogation would have done much good. I doubt he would have had much to say. I can't imagine him being in any way forthright

Waterboarding tends to increase a person's forthrightness.

the information is unreliable, so why do it

[Feck]

Torture does not give much information . With a cell based terrorist structure it can only give you info (at best ) that probably you already know or will be out of date by the time you get it . Strangely torturing an innocent yoghurt salesman for MONTHS is not how they got the info to catch Bin Laden , I would be surprised if ANY of the info gathered under long term repeated torture led to this .

'Waterboarding tends to increase a person's forthrightness' this comment lessens my opinion of you considerably .

[charlou]

Waterboarding tends to increase a person's forthrightness.

Do you seriously think this is a valid technique to gain truthful and accurate information?

the information is unreliable, so why do it

Yep, people may lie under duress if they think it will end torture.

[Svartalf]

Actually torture is an excellent way of relieving pentup rage against the person being subjected to it.
Who cares about the intel being reliable?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The so-called photo of OBL body is a fake...

Yep, the US government wants to set itself up for the reappearance of OBL somewhere, so they can look like complete idiots. OBL has agreed with Obama that he should lay low for a few months so the surprise will be even greater.

See? I can do stupid too.

[charlou]

The so-called photo of OBL body is a fake...

Yep, the US government wants to set itself up for the reappearance of OBL somewhere, so they can look like complete idiots. OBL has agreed with Obama that he should lay low for a few months so the surprise will be even greater.

See? I can do stupid too. [/quote

Yep, that's what I had in mind. Genuine mix-up notwithstanding, of course.

[Gawd]

I don't think anybody is saying that killing Bin Laden changed a whole lot. But goddamn it feels good to see it done. It's more a psychological milestone than anything else. And I think that's as good a reason as any to celebrate.
So there.

It's symbolically important. It says that if you fuck with us, we'll fucking kill you. And, it won't matter how long it takes or how much it costs. We'll spit on your grave. It's a very tribal message.

It's the message that was sent to the world after 9/11/01.

Example - from Woodward's book, "Bush at War" quoting CIA agent Cofer Black:

Armitage and Cofer flew to Moscow to seek help from top Russian diplomatic and intelligence officials.
"We're in a war," Black told the Russians. "We're coming. Regardless of what you do, we're coming anyway." He knew Afghanistan was in their sphere of influence and they would be queasy. "At the very least we want you to look away." He did not want the Russians trying to gum up CIA operations. "From my humble position, I think this is a historical opportunity. Let's get out of the last century into the next one."
The Russians indicated they would help and certainly not obstruct. One noted that Afghanistan was ambush heaven, where the guerrilla fighters had demolished the Russian army. "With regret," the Russian said, "I have to say that you're really going to get the hell kicked out of you".
"We're going to kill them," Black said. "We're going to put their heads on sticks. We're going to rock their world."

This is what folks need to really "get" about this war. This isn't about "who likes whom" and "whose nice to whom" and all that juvenile nonsense that makes up a lot of political discussion around internet forums. It basically boils down to - you fuck with us, and we're going to fucking kill you, and we're going to put your dead heads up on sticks for everyone to see what happens when you fuck with us.

It's the reality that humanity has not changed all that much in the last 10,000 years. Our toys and weapons have changed, but we're not inherently different than we were when vanquished enemies would literally be put up on sticks to show everyone who isn't to be trifled with.

Like it or not, that's the reality. And, killing Osama is something that others who might have similar intentions will take notice of. It's a metaphorical head on a stick.

You can't afford to kill another Osama bin Laden, he bankrupted your country. You guys spent trillions of dollars and 10 years going after one man. That's a damn waste of money and time, not to mention all the innocents you've killed and tortured on the way.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Do you always look at the world through a hate-filter?

[Gawd]

Do you always look at the world through a hate-filter?

Better than the American vengeance filter where they do no wrong.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Do you always look at the world through a hate-filter?

Better than the American vengeance filter where they do no wrong.

Q.E.D.