Libya: should anything be done?
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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
The Chinese get some of their oil from Libya. Does anyone know how this will impact the Chinese miracle?
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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
Who, exactly?Warren Dew wrote:The rebels are now pressing NATO and the U.S. to intervene militarily on their side.
There's not much of a coalesced rebel force with a clear chain of command as far as I can tell. If anyone else was to offer military assistance, I'm not sure who they would offer it to, or how much backing that person would have.
Much more importantly (and I've heard this from Libyans themselves in interviews), military intervention might be counterproductive in the long run. The is the Libyan people's thing - they have to finish it by themselves as much as they can. If they only oust Qaddafi because it was made possible by strikes from NATO or US or UK or womever, that'll only create resentment in the future. At the most, a no-fly zone could be put in place, but only if there are verified reports of Libyan airstrikes directly against civilians. Aircraft have attacked rebel-held weapons depots, but I don't know that there's evidence of direct attacks against rebels (which isn't to say that there haven't been any).
Of course, if things really do devolve into a protracted and bloody civil war, that provides some incentive to try and end the stalemate. But by the time it reaches that level, the opposition might have a more organized and internationally recognized command structure - one that can formally request foreign military intervention if they need it. Until then, this is and must remain Libya's show.
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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
This is not a matter for the Libyan people. That oil does not belong to them. It is a intervention to protect the oil and remove a unstable regime leader to be replaced with someone who understands the issues concerning 'our' oil.Ian wrote:Who, exactly?Warren Dew wrote:The rebels are now pressing NATO and the U.S. to intervene militarily on their side.
There's not much of a coalesced rebel force with a clear chain of command as far as I can tell. If anyone else was to offer military assistance, I'm not sure who they would offer it to, or how much backing that person would have.
Much more importantly (and I've heard this from Libyans themselves in interviews), military intervention might be counterproductive in the long run. The is the Libyan people's thing - they have to finish it by themselves as much as they can. If they only oust Qaddafi because it was made possible by strikes from NATO or US or UK or womever, that'll only create resentment in the future. At the most, a no-fly zone could be put in place, but only if there are verified reports of Libyan airstrikes directly against civilians. Aircraft have attacked rebel-held weapons depots, but I don't know that there's evidence of direct attacks against rebels (which isn't to say that there haven't been any).
Of course, if things really do devolve into a protracted and bloody civil war, that provides some incentive to try and end the stalemate. But by the time it reaches that level, the opposition might have a more organized and internationally recognized command structure - one that can formally request foreign military intervention if they need it. Until then, this is and must remain Libya's show.

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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
That's the thing that our Presidents cannot seem to figure out: you cannot IMPOSE freedom, people have to WIN IT for themselves, because if they don't win it with the "blood of patriots and tyrants," they soon cease to value it, and will give it away in return for a little temporary safety.Ian wrote:Who, exactly?Warren Dew wrote:The rebels are now pressing NATO and the U.S. to intervene militarily on their side.
There's not much of a coalesced rebel force with a clear chain of command as far as I can tell. If anyone else was to offer military assistance, I'm not sure who they would offer it to, or how much backing that person would have.
Much more importantly (and I've heard this from Libyans themselves in interviews), military intervention might be counterproductive in the long run. The is the Libyan people's thing - they have to finish it by themselves as much as they can. If they only oust Qaddafi because it was made possible by strikes from NATO or US or UK or womever, that'll only create resentment in the future. At the most, a no-fly zone could be put in place, but only if there are verified reports of Libyan airstrikes directly against civilians. Aircraft have attacked rebel-held weapons depots, but I don't know that there's evidence of direct attacks against rebels (which isn't to say that there haven't been any).
Of course, if things really do devolve into a protracted and bloody civil war, that provides some incentive to try and end the stalemate. But by the time it reaches that level, the opposition might have a more organized and internationally recognized command structure - one that can formally request foreign military intervention if they need it. Until then, this is and must remain Libya's show.
I feel for the people of Libya, and I hope they succeed in freeing themselves from a brutal dictator, but we can't do it for them, and imposing some sort of cease-fire only serves the tyrant. The "rebels" need to use the momentum they have right now. They may all die, but nobody can help them if they are going to truly value their freedom, which is the ONLY hope for them if they are to avoid trading one mad dictator for a theocratic tyranny far worse than what they had: Islam.
I have to say this for Quadaffy, he was a pretty secular dictator, as such dictators go.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
- Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
Sweet.Gawdzilla wrote:Libya Rebels Halt Gaddafi Attack.

I'm hoping this will all be over shortly. I'm betting on a palace coup sort of thing. Somebody somewhat close to him might be organizing something. Maybe.

At least stories like this give me hope that no foreign intervention will ever be asked for/needed.
Anybody want to guess how many Tomahawk cruise missiles the US has in the Med right at the moment?
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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
I'm hoping the Italians take note of this example of how to topple a particularly
limpet-like dictator and take heart...
limpet-like dictator and take heart...
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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
It's the women who'll topple him....if they can organise a national sex strike in Italy they'll do it anywhere.von Starnberg wrote:I'm hoping the Italians take note of this example of how to topple a particularly
limpet-like dictator and take heart...

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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
We'll miss Gadaffi when he's gone. "The people all love me. They're all off their heads on spiked Nescafe suppled by Al Qaeda (who don't exist)". You just don't get that quality of pronouncement from our dull western leaders...
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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
They were pretty fucking hopeless in military terms in that part of the world in the past...laklak wrote:I wouldn't even enforce a no-fly zone. Libya's airspace is Libya's airspace, what right do we have to restrict it? What happens when Libyan fighters shoot back? Then we're in another shooting war. Besides, some civilian is bound to get caught in a crossfire or squished by a falling Mirage and then we'll be Aggressor Imperialist Murderers yet again.
We get almost no oil from Libya to start with, why should it matter who owns the wells? If the Italians are worried about it let them take care of it, it isn't our business.
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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
I remember one British Captain reporting taking Italian POWs by the acre....JimC wrote:They were pretty fucking hopeless in military terms in that part of the world in the past...laklak wrote:I wouldn't even enforce a no-fly zone. Libya's airspace is Libya's airspace, what right do we have to restrict it? What happens when Libyan fighters shoot back? Then we're in another shooting war. Besides, some civilian is bound to get caught in a crossfire or squished by a falling Mirage and then we'll be Aggressor Imperialist Murderers yet again.
We get almost no oil from Libya to start with, why should it matter who owns the wells? If the Italians are worried about it let them take care of it, it isn't our business.
I can hear the shade of Marshall Graziani agreeing with me ruefully...
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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
I say we leap-frog right over this one and go straight into N. Korea. 

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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
Maybe we could get the N.Koreans to invade Libya? I don't believe they've ever had the opportunity to spar with one another.FBM wrote:I say we leap-frog right over this one and go straight into N. Korea.
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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
Legend has it six English tanks forced the surrender of over 50,000 Italians at one point.Clinton Huxley wrote:I remember one British Captain reporting taking Italian POWs by the acre....JimC wrote:They were pretty fucking hopeless in military terms in that part of the world in the past...laklak wrote:I wouldn't even enforce a no-fly zone. Libya's airspace is Libya's airspace, what right do we have to restrict it? What happens when Libyan fighters shoot back? Then we're in another shooting war. Besides, some civilian is bound to get caught in a crossfire or squished by a falling Mirage and then we'll be Aggressor Imperialist Murderers yet again.
We get almost no oil from Libya to start with, why should it matter who owns the wells? If the Italians are worried about it let them take care of it, it isn't our business.
I can hear the shade of Marshall Graziani agreeing with me ruefully...
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Re: Libya: should anything be done?
Gadaffi now says he'll fight to the last man and woman. 

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