Rape Rampant In US Military

[GreyICE]

I think the point she was getting at, Anthroban, is that rape is by definition non-consensual sex, or sex where one party is incapable of giving informed consent.

Everything after that is kinda just fucking noise. Unfortunately, most often given by people who say "it wasn't 'rape rape'" with finger quotes.

Everything you just wrote is just noise and fails to address what I was saying in the same way Gallstones said did, however I'm not so sure you're a smart cookie.

The point was it is more complex than "sex without consent". Some people get off on the idea, if not the act, of being "raped" - that is having sex forced upon them without their consent. The issue is when it becomes rape, don't give me that argumentum ad dictionary bullshit. Definitions are descriptive not prescriptive and not at all definite.

If such a person had sex forced upon them without their consent it is not rape, it is their fetish played out.

No, you fail. It's rape. It's not dictionary, it's just fact. Your justifications are pathetic.

If they agree to the fantasy, then it's fine. There's plenty of fantasy play. People go to quite elaborate lengths to set them up. Safe words, controlled setting, etc. I mean seriously, heard of a safe word? Lets you do things like that and still have boundaries and consent.

You see, Anthroban, I understand what you said very well. I addressed it perfectly adequately. I called it fucking stupid because it was fucking stupid, and I called it irrelevant because it was irrelevant. If someone does not consent to sex it is rape. Period, the end, no noise about fantasies and other garbage, oh, she liked it, oh she was dressing slutty, oh she was asking for it. I won't bother beating around the bush with euphemisms and cuteness like you. No shit about 'not so smart cookies,' if you believe otherwise, the best-case descriptor is a naive dipshit.

[sandinista]

US veterans say military fails in rape claim inquiries

A group of US military veterans who say they were sexually assaulted by fellow servicemen and then neglected by the military have sued to force reform.

The plaintiffs say the military is too lax in investigating and prosecuting sex crimes and fosters a culture where victims are afraid to report crimes.

The women argue that too few offences lead to court martial, and hope their case will draw attention to the issue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12469368

[charlou]

The women argue that too few offences lead to court martial, and hope their case will draw attention to the issue.

I hope it does too. It's good that some of the women who have been abused are coming forward. I wonder if any male victims will ever feel that they can stand up for their rights in the same way?

[JimC]

US veterans say military fails in rape claim inquiries

A group of US military veterans who say they were sexually assaulted by fellow servicemen and then neglected by the military have sued to force reform.

The plaintiffs say the military is too lax in investigating and prosecuting sex crimes and fosters a culture where victims are afraid to report crimes.

The women argue that too few offences lead to court martial, and hope their case will draw attention to the issue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12469368

It will be interesting to see how this case plays out. If successfull, and large payouts occur, with others pending, it may stimulate reforms within the military more effectively than pure ethical or justice consisderations would ever manage. The hip-pocket nerve & unwelcome, large scale publicity may tip the balance...

[kiki5711]

With numbers like that, behavior problems happen, though I've never seen anything to make the word "rampant" come to mind. Is it possible that it's more common among young men in the military than young men in college? Yes, though I personally doubt it. But I'm not sure, 'cause wouldn't you know it... Sandi didn't bother making comparisons.

you call raping a "behavior problem". Wow.......Glad you don't know what it's like!

Would you consider "cutting off his dick" just a behavior problem?

[Ian]

With numbers like that, behavior problems happen, though I've never seen anything to make the word "rampant" come to mind. Is it possible that it's more common among young men in the military than young men in college? Yes, though I personally doubt it. But I'm not sure, 'cause wouldn't you know it... Sandi didn't bother making comparisons.

you call raping a "behavior problem". Wow.......Glad you don't know what it's like!

Would you consider "cutting off his dick" just a behavior problem?

Um, yes. All forms of crime could ultimately be called behavior problems. I wasn't trying to belittle the impact rape has on its victims compared to say, purse-snatching, and I never said rape was "just" anything. But a crime is a crime, and it's a crime because of the actions (i.e. the behavior) of the perpetrator, not whether the victim is more hurt by one crime than another.

My point was that, if sandi is going to throw threads like this out there as a means to show that the military he hates is full of thugs (in other words that rape could be called an institutional problem as well as a societal problem), then comparisons ought to be made between said military and other institutions. And the statistics show that college boys (same age as servicemen) may very well be even more likely to engage in this crime.
The statistics also show that anywhere you go, around military bases or college campuses or elsewhere, rape is underreported, underprosecuted and underconvicted. But sandi's biases make him prone to griping about the military, not colleges, so that's where he started this thread.

[sandinista]

With numbers like that, behavior problems happen, though I've never seen anything to make the word "rampant" come to mind. Is it possible that it's more common among young men in the military than young men in college? Yes, though I personally doubt it. But I'm not sure, 'cause wouldn't you know it... Sandi didn't bother making comparisons.

you call raping a "behavior problem". Wow.......Glad you don't know what it's like!

Would you consider "cutting off his dick" just a behavior problem?

Um, yes. All forms of crime could ultimately be called behavior problems. I wasn't trying to belittle the impact rape has on its victims compared to say, purse-snatching, and I never said rape was "just" anything. But a crime is a crime, and it's a crime because of the actions (i.e. the behavior) of the perpetrator, not whether the victim is more hurt by one crime than another.

My point was that, if sandi is going to throw threads like this out there as a means to show that the military he hates is full of thugs (in other words that rape could be called an institutional problem as well as a societal problem), then comparisons ought to be made between said military and other institutions. And the statistics show that college boys (same age as servicemen) may very well be even more likely to engage in this crime.
The statistics also show that anywhere you go, around military bases or college campuses or elsewhere, rape is underreported, underprosecuted and underconvicted. But sandi's biases make him prone to griping about the military, not colleges, so that's where he started this thread.

So, I can't start a thread about rape in the US military unless I also start one about rape on college campuses? hmmm. That makes no sense. BTW I do hate thugs that rape people. Don't go on about my "bias" you as well as everyone else is just a bias as I am towards their point of view.

[Ian]

So, I can't start a thread about rape in the US military unless I also start one about rape on college campuses? hmmm. That makes no sense. BTW I do hate thugs that rape people. Don't go on about my "bias" you as well as everyone else is just a bias as I am towards their point of view.

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you over the sound of your OP:

Seems that beside, perhaps, the catholic church, the US military us one of the most fucked up organizations on the planet.

I'll go on about your (rather enormous) bias as much as I feel it's warranted. Start all the threads you like on whatever you like, but be prepared to put your conclusions in context or others will do it for you.

You started this thread with a specific agenda, to embarrass the US military that you despise so much, and over the course of the last six pages you were taken to task on it. Sexual assaults are indeed a significant problem in the military. But despite what you wrote in your own OP, it's not an organizational problem so much as a societal problem. Lo and behold, the statistics for college students (and, it seems reasonable to assume, college/military-aged men who aren't in either the military or in college) are equally bad if not worse. But by all means, keep posting here and re-hashing just how clueless and unobjective you are.

[sandinista]

So, I can't start a thread about rape in the US military unless I also start one about rape on college campuses? hmmm. That makes no sense. BTW I do hate thugs that rape people. Don't go on about my "bias" you as well as everyone else is just a bias as I am towards their point of view.

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you over the sound of your OP:

Seems that beside, perhaps, the catholic church, the US military us one of the most fucked up organizations on the planet.

I'll go on about your (rather enormous) bias as much as I feel it's warranted. Start all the threads you like on whatever you like, but be prepared to put your conclusions in context or others will do it for you.

You started this thread with a specific agenda, to embarrass the US military that you despise so much, and over the course of the last six pages you were taken to task on it. Sexual assaults are indeed a significant problem in the military. But despite what you wrote in your own OP, it's not an organizational problem so much as a societal problem. Lo and behold, the statistics for college students (and, it seems reasonable to assume, college/military-aged men who aren't in either the military or in college) are equally bad if not worse. But by all means, keep posting here and re-hashing just how clueless and unobjective you are.

taken to task, you're a comedian now? So, if college stats are bad as well, start a thread about that if you're concerned. That is not the topic of this thread.

[Ian]

taken to task, you're a comedian now? So, if college stats are bad as well, start a thread about that if you're concerned. That is not the topic of this thread.

I spent four years in college working on a criminal justice degree because crime concerns me. I'm sure crime concerns you too. But somehow, I don't think the plight of rape victims in general was your primary concern by starting this thread. If it were, you would have bothered to find out how bad or worse it is elsewhere besides the military. But, you hate the US military, so there's your unobjective OP. Dude, you have so utterly LOST this thread you're pretty much at the point of shaming yourself. It was dead for well over a month before you resurrected it. I suggest you let it die again.

[sandinista]

taken to task, you're a comedian now? So, if college stats are bad as well, start a thread about that if you're concerned. That is not the topic of this thread.

I spent four years in college working on a criminal justice degree because crime concerns me. I'm sure crime concerns you too. But somehow, I don't think the plight of rape victims in general was your primary concern by starting this thread. If it were, you would have bothered to find out how bad or worse it is elsewhere besides the military. But, you hate the US military, so there's your unobjective OP. Dude, you have so utterly LOST this thread you're pretty much at the point of shaming yourself. It was dead for well over a month before you resurrected it. I suggest you let it die again.

again...whats with a handful of you "people" with the "won/lost"? I wasn't aware this was a competition. Take your bias and assumptions and go away. Since you "suggest" I let it die, because you obviously are very uncomfortable discussing rape in the military, I won't.

[Ian]

taken to task, you're a comedian now? So, if college stats are bad as well, start a thread about that if you're concerned. That is not the topic of this thread.

I spent four years in college working on a criminal justice degree because crime concerns me. I'm sure crime concerns you too. But somehow, I don't think the plight of rape victims in general was your primary concern by starting this thread. If it were, you would have bothered to find out how bad or worse it is elsewhere besides the military. But, you hate the US military, so there's your unobjective OP. Dude, you have so utterly LOST this thread you're pretty much at the point of shaming yourself. It was dead for well over a month before you resurrected it. I suggest you let it die again.

again...whats with a handful of you "people" with the "won/lost"? I wasn't aware this was a competition. Take your bias and assumptions and go away. Since you "suggest" I let it die, because you obviously are very uncomfortable discussing rape in the military, I won't.

What a cowardly response!

I'll talk about rape in the military all you like. I spent ten years on active duty, and I don't mind discussing any of my former career. But it's all about context. You don't seem to understand what that means. It means that rape is clearly no worse a problem in the military than elsewhere. And the statistics I've put up and seen elsewhere show that women might even be safer around servicemen than other men the same age. If one tries to be objective, it's not hard to figure out why it's worse on college campuses. Compared to college campuses or young men working civilian jobs, in the military there's 1) more discipline, 2) less alcohol, 3) less privacy, and 4) less opportunity (i.e. fewer women!). But you don't try to be objective. You've got your own little agenda, and now you're uncomfortable with the fact that your OP was proven to be a crock of shit.

So why am I so happy to point out that you've made an arse out of yourself in this thread? Because you started it by making comparisons to the catholic church, invoking rampant rape, and calling my former employer one of the most fucked up organizations on the planet because of it. And you were wrong, and your bigotry was exposed by it.

[sandinista]

keep digging your hole.

[charlou]

I'm not surprised that Ian is defensive regarding criticism of the military. The use of deflection tactics are obvious, too.

Pity your defensiveness of the military clouds the issue too much for you to acknowledge it really does deserve to be scrutinised and addressed as it relates to the military, Ian.

[JimC]

So, I can't start a thread about rape in the US military unless I also start one about rape on college campuses? hmmm. That makes no sense. BTW I do hate thugs that rape people. Don't go on about my "bias" you as well as everyone else is just a bias as I am towards their point of view.

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you over the sound of your OP:

Seems that beside, perhaps, the catholic church, the US military us one of the most fucked up organizations on the planet.

I'll go on about your (rather enormous) bias as much as I feel it's warranted. Start all the threads you like on whatever you like, but be prepared to put your conclusions in context or others will do it for you.

You started this thread with a specific agenda, to embarrass the US military that you despise so much, and over the course of the last six pages you were taken to task on it. Sexual assaults are indeed a significant problem in the military. But despite what you wrote in your own OP, it's not an organizational problem so much as a societal problem. Lo and behold, the statistics for college students (and, it seems reasonable to assume, college/military-aged men who aren't in either the military or in college) are equally bad if not worse. But by all means, keep posting here and re-hashing just how clueless and unobjective you are.

Ian, I very much take your point about the need for fair comparisons with similar demographics are needed to make a valid case.

However, my understanding (via the OP, and various media reports) is that one worrying feature of rape investigations in the US military has been claims of a certain degree of attempted cover up, and disatisfaction by victims with the reaction of their superiors to their plight. (I would suspect that other military forces around the world may also face the same issues, BTW...) A more recent post alludes to legal action being brought by veterans unhappy with the way their rape allegations were dealt with by their superiors. This should be something that is investigated with the utmost seriousness...