The Political Brain

[pErvinalia]

Just now in January, 2010, the Obama Administration proposed nationalizing the student loan industry.

Oh noes!!1! Students can get cheap loans that benefit the intellectual wealth of the nation (and probably boosting employment to boot). It's Stalin all over again.

I never said it was anything to panic over. I said what it is. You are free to think it's a great idea, if you want. But, it is a socialist idea. I never said it was Stalinist. Can't you focus?

Sorry. I reiterate my apology. But to remind everyone, Seth actually DOES think policy like this will lead to Stalin-like authoritarianism.

He may not "be" a Marxist, but he sure sympathizes with them and is heading in directions they like. And, he sure as FUCK is not "right." That's coffee-spitting funny, the allegation that Obama is a right winger. Bwah - fucking - hah hhahaha...

You need to get out and see some of the world. Seriously.

I'd venture to guess I've seen a lot more of it than you.

That's objectively false, given you can say things like Obama isn't a right winger. Seriously. Obama's administration would be plain old vanilla "right" at best, and often "far right", in the rest of the western world. It's likely he would never get elected in most of the rest of the developed world for being too far right (and I'm saying this based on his actions, not the lies he said before the election).

Obama is not a right winger. Judging by your flag in your avatar, I'd say you've been stuck down under too long. Being upside down must be sending all the blood rushing to your head and making you loopy. Actually visit the US or follow it's politics before you spout nonsense about it. LOL. Obama the "right winger."

There's a large number of politically literate and sophisticated US posters on Ratskep who agree that Obama is right-wing by western standards. I'm happy to accept their view.

[pErvinalia]

The Communist Party USA actively supported Obama during the primary election...

Do you think they still support him (outside of a two horse race with a bunch of theocratic lunatics)? Seriously?

and their leader Sam Webb recently stated: "Just look at the new lay of the land: a friend of labor and its allies sits in the White House." He went on to enthusiastically discuss Obama's agenda to nationalize the American financial system, the Federal Reserve Bank, and private industries such as energy and various other sectors. "All these – and many other things – are within OUR reach now... an opportunity of a lifetime," said Webb. So, that's what the Communist Party USA thinksthought of him.

FIFY.

Obama received the endorsement of the Chicago branch of the Democratic Socialists of America for an Illinois state senate seat in 1996.

Do you think they would still support him (outside of a two horse race with a bunch of theocratic lunatics)?

Yes, they do. Along with every other radical leftist and even left-leaning political organization in the nation, and many elsewhere.

As I said, that is only because of the truly frightening scenario that is the opposition. Sarah Palin in the whitehouse

They understand what you do not: Obama is Marxism's best hope to advance the Marxist Progressive agenda in enormous ways that will be very, very difficult to reverse. That's why the Progressives in Congress rammed through the health care,

They didn't even fight for health care. They rolled over and took one up the shitter. For fucks sake, the health care reform is the same as Nixon's health care proposal, and the same as some repub states have implemented. If health care is marxist, then what where you tea party types doing during Nixon and presently doing about the repub states with similar health care?

banking and bailout bills while they still could.

Clearly banking had to be done. They were a big part of the reason for the GFC. How many of them went down the shitter in the collapse? Clearly they aren't doing something right.

Bailout - most of it has been repaid. The bailout wasn't socialism. It was pragmatism. And good pragmatism at that.

They know they can't achieve the ultimate goal of destroying capitalism and the United States right away, but they can use Obama to steal a march on liberty, and they are doing so in many, many ways, most of them beyond your ken.

That's hilarious suggesting Obama is restricting Liberty after what Bush did (Guantanamo, Rendition, illegal wire taps), and what republican states in the south are doing now (e.g. Arizona).

Yes really. As I say to all Americans who think Obama and his administration is left-wing - what is your experience of the rest of the world? Are you aware of what passes for right wing and left wing in the rest of the developed world?

Again, your propagandistic Alinsky revisionism is transparent. Your strawman argument is just as weak. That Obama is not a card-carrying, flag-waving, out-in-the-open member of the CPUSA who has openly declared his hatred for capitalism and the United States does not mean that he's not a crypto-Marxist who has every intention of subverting the Constitution and forwarding the Marxist Progressive agenda. His actions, and his personal history, speak louder than your ignorant words.

Marxist RantTM - didn't read.

[sandinista]

There's a large number of politically literate and sophisticated US posters on Ratskep who agree that Obama is right-wing by western standards. I'm happy to accept their view.

rEvolutionist, Ratskep is a much more politically adept forum than rationalia. I'm sure you've noticed that. All the librarians and "USA number 1" folks seem to find their way over here. Ratskep has more interesting and well informed posts, but rationalia is, at times anyway, more fun because of the opposing views. There are a lot of forums where everyone pretty much agrees on everything and that can get a little Hoping toontown, Hugin, and stronium dog make their way over here, haha.

[pErvinalia]

There's a large number of politically literate and sophisticated US posters on Ratskep who agree that Obama is right-wing by western standards. I'm happy to accept their view.

rEvolutionist, Ratskep is a much more politically adept forum than rationalia. I'm sure you've noticed that. All the librarians...

Hoping toontown, Hugin, and stronium dog make their way over here, haha.

I've seen Toontown here already. As for the other two, I don't think they have a sense of humour. I doubt they'd fit in here at all. Although, Hugin has just been suspended for a month (no doubt a leftist conspiracy ) at ratskep. He might have to come over here soon enough if he keeps ad homing people over there.

[sandinista]

haha, yah I saw he was suspended and keep waiting for him to show up here. He would be welcomed

[pErvinalia]

Well, him and Seth would make a good partnership. He's constantly starting anti-socialism threads. Like Seth, though, he doesn't actually know what socialism is.

[NineOneFour]

This - he's a marxist - no he's not - argument is hilarious.

Actually, most of your arguments are hilarious.

Seth is calling him a marxist as a pejorative. The rest are saying, "no he's not, he doesn't deserve that compliment." LOL

He's President of the US, and he has to work within our system.

But, his sympathies lie with the far Left.

Only if you view the far left as anyone slightly left of Albert Speer.

That's for sure.

In the masturbatory dreams of teabaggers, maybe.

Obama's strong influences were guys like Frank Davis of the Communist Party of the United States - that's not rumor - that's Obama writing in the book Dreams From My Father. He stated that he "chose his friends carefully... the Marxist professors... we were resisting resisting bourgeois society’s stifling constraints."

Quote mine, much?

[qoute] He had strong ties with William Ayers[/quote]

The guy he met once in his living room?

and Bernardine Dorhn.

Prove it.

He had ties to Alice Palmer

Prove it.

who was on the Soviet Unions payroll back in the 1980s,

Prove it.

as well as Mike Konsky

Prove it.

(communist and son of Robert Klonsky who was a founder of the American Communist Party).

Bullshit, it was founded by Ruthenberg and Fraina.

Spend too much time listening to Beck, again, did we?

[qoute] Obama had close ties with Rashid Khalidi, who was the President of Columbia University's Communist Party and a former spokesperson for the PLO. [/quote]

Rasid Khalidi is not a communist. He's also not a jihadist, he was accused of that too.

Obama led organizations funded the Arab American Action League

I think you mean the Arab American Action Network. You could at least get your conspiracy theories right, but apparently even that seems to be too much for you.

Since the AAAN is run by Khalidi, you're just repeating yourself. Did you find all this info yourself or did you cut and paste? My bet is cut and paste.

Considering the AAAN is not communist, and works closely with Illinois DHS and the Chicago Cultural Alliance, this conspiracy theory of yours doesn't pass the smell test.

an organization calling for the demolition of Israel and chaired by Khalidi's wife.

No, it's chaired by Khalidi. Khalidi is a harsh critic of Israel.

Let me Google this shit.

Ahhh.

World Nut Daily is your source.

Busted here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/29 ... 730/466083

Here's your source, written by someone who apparently spends most of his time eating rubber cement.

Khalidi held successful fundraisers for Obama's campaign.

The Communist Party USA actively supported Obama during the primary election and their leader Sam Webb recently stated: "Just look at the new lay of the land: a friend of labor and its allies sits in the White House." He went on to enthusiastically discuss Obama's agenda to nationalize the American financial system, the Federal Reserve Bank, and private industries such as energy and various other sectors. "All these – and many other things – are within OUR reach now... an opportunity of a lifetime," said Webb. So, that's what the Communist Party USA thinks of him.

Gosh, do you think they think better of him than they do Bush? I bet the National Socialist Worker's Party and everyone at Stormfront liked Bush and McCain better than Obama. Doesn't make Bush or McCain racists.

GUILT BY ASSOCIATION.

McCarthy would be proud of you.

Obama received the endorsement of the Chicago branch of the Democratic Socialists of America for an Illinois state senate seat in 1996. Obama admitted that he regularly attended communist conferences at Cooper Union College. Obama endorsed Bernie Sanders, who was the first self-described socialist to be elected to the U.S. Senate. The National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings placed only one Senator who had voted a more socialistic agenda than Sanders: Obama.

...with all due respect to those here who think Obama is "right wing." I mean, come the fuck on.... really?

Oh NO! The DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS OF AMERICA?

Don't look now, there might be an American social democrat posting in this thread.

BOO!

As for your retarded National Journal's vote ratings, you know who they picked in 2004? John Kerry. I have no doubt that had Hillary Clinton been the nominee instead of Obama, somehow they would have found that she was more liberal than anyone but Bernie Sanders.

Bernie Sanders being one of about three Senators who can find his ass with both hands.

Your entire shtick is basically ZOMG COMMIES! And then conflating communists with socialists.

Typical of your posts.

[NineOneFour]

Well, him and Seth would make a good partnership. He's constantly starting anti-socialism threads. Like Seth, though, he doesn't actually know what socialism is.

They both got run off of Ratskep too.

[sandinista]

Well, him and Seth would make a good partnership. He's constantly starting anti-socialism threads. Like Seth, though, he doesn't actually know what socialism is.

They both got run off of Ratskep too.

and landed here Good to see you around 914!

[Coito ergo sum]

Of course it's not socialism, but it is socialist. It's government control of the means of production in that industry.

No, I'm not claiming that the whole of the western world is socialist. Most of it is a mixed economy with more or less degree of government control over different industries, depending on the country. I never said that socialized medicine was socialism - but it's socialist, isn't it? If it was capitalist then it would involve a free market for medical products and services, wouldn't it? We know it's not capitalist - so if it's not socialist - then what would you say it is? Fascist? Anarcho-syndicalist? What?

It's all about where you put the bottom line isn't it? You are free to claim that only an absolutely free market is capitalism and any government involvement is marxist socialism,

....anyone is free to claim that, but I did not claim that. Not at all. I claimed exactly the opposite. What part of "most of it is a MIXED ECONOMY with more or less degree of government control over different industries, depending on the country," equals "unless it's an absolutely free market it's marxist socialism?"

[

but then it is just as right (wrong) to claim that only total government control is socialism, and letting an old flower woman keep her meagre earnings is capitalistic exploit.

I never said only total government control was socialism. What are you on about?

[

What you call Obamas politics does not tell anything about him, but a hell of a lot about you.

O.k., I'll bite - What's it tell you about me?

[MiM]

Sorry coito. I was unclear in framing that comment. It was intended as a general comment to this discussion and not specifically aimed at you, even though I used your text as a stepping stone.

[Coito ergo sum]

This - he's a marxist - no he's not - argument is hilarious.

Actually, most of your arguments are hilarious.

Your mother.

Seth is calling him a marxist as a pejorative. The rest are saying, "no he's not, he doesn't deserve that compliment." LOL

He's President of the US, and he has to work within our system.

But, his sympathies lie with the far Left.

Only if you view the far left as anyone slightly left of Albert Speer.

No. Only if you view the matter realistically, and look at what he has said and done over the years.

That's for sure.

In the masturbatory dreams of teabaggers, maybe.

I wouldn't know. I oppose the teabaggers on most issues.

Obama's strong influences were guys like Frank Davis of the Communist Party of the United States - that's not rumor - that's Obama writing in the book Dreams From My Father. He stated that he "chose his friends carefully... the Marxist professors... we were resisting resisting bourgeois society’s stifling constraints."

Quote mine, much?

That's not a quote mine. It's not taken out of context to mean something other than intended.

[qoute] He had strong ties with William Ayers

The guy he met once in his living room?[/quote]

False. It wasn't just once.

and Bernardine Dorhn.

Prove it.

Already done.

He had ties to Alice Palmer

Prove it.

Already done. These are facts. Make of them what you like, if anything.

who was on the Soviet Unions payroll back in the 1980s,

Prove it.

You are disputing that Alice Palmer was on the Soviet payroll in the 1980's?

as well as Mike Konsky

Prove it.

Already proved.

(communist and son of Robert Klonsky who was a founder of the American Communist Party).

Bullshit, it was founded by Ruthenberg and Fraina.

Hence my use of the term "a" in relation to the word "founder."

Spend too much time listening to Beck, again, did we?

Haven't seen or heard any material from Glenn Beck in about six months. I don't like his show.

The Communist Party USA actively supported Obama during the primary election and their leader Sam Webb recently stated: "Just look at the new lay of the land: a friend of labor and its allies sits in the White House." He went on to enthusiastically discuss Obama's agenda to nationalize the American financial system, the Federal Reserve Bank, and private industries such as energy and various other sectors. "All these – and many other things – are within OUR reach now... an opportunity of a lifetime," said Webb. So, that's what the Communist Party USA thinks of him.

Gosh, do you think they think better of him than they do Bush? I bet the National Socialist Worker's Party and everyone at Stormfront liked Bush and McCain better than Obama. Doesn't make Bush or McCain racists.

GUILT BY ASSOCIATION.

Interesting - do you think that holding leftist ideas makes one "guilty" of something? I don't.

...with all due respect to those here who think Obama is "right wing." I mean, come the fuck on.... really?

Oh NO! The DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS OF AMERICA?

Don't look now, there might be an American social democrat posting in this thread.

BOO![/quote]

Always with the hyperbolic rhetoric, ay? He's not "right wing." His sympathies lie with the left. Do you honestly dispute that?

[Coito ergo sum]

Sorry. I reiterate my apology. But to remind everyone, Seth actually DOES think policy like this will lead to Stalin-like authoritarianism.

He might at that. I disagree with Seth more than i agree with him.

[
There's a large number of politically literate and sophisticated US posters on Ratskep who agree that Obama is right-wing by western standards. I'm happy to accept their view.

Accept whatever view that you like. There is a fight in the US over the political center. The left wants to suggest that the left is really the middle. And, there is likewise a massive effort to "conservatize" Obama to get votes for the 2012 election from the portion of voters known as "independents" (mot of whom like to call themselves 'conservative') and from those who used to be called "Reagan Democrats." Over the last month or so, there has been a media blitz to Reaganize Obama. Just google "is obama like reagan" or something like that - you'll marvel at that long list of comparison pieces.

The idea is that the great mass of American voters is to the right of Obama. So, to get those votes, Obama needs to appear less left. That's because he is left. His views, the views he espouses, are not as far left when compared to the middle in many other countries, that's true. But he is no "right winger." That's just nonsense, and it's not a view shared by any political commentators that I'm aware of. And, it's not a view shared by Obama himself. He certainly wouldn't call himself "right wing" would he?

But, this whole debate - as I initially prefaced - is hilarious. It's much ado about nothing. His views are his views - whether you juxtapose them with the political center of the US, or Australia, or China, or Luxemborg. It doesn't matter. All these folks that immediately jump up my ass and attack me for politely espousing a different view. Did I say Obama was Stalin? Did I Godwins' law him? Did I say that he was evil? Did I say he didn't want what he thinks is best for the country? Nope. Not once. I just stated that his words that he has written and spoken reveal that his sympathies lie with the left and that he's not a right winger.

I disagree with much of Obama's proposals. So what? That doesn't make me a tea partier or a libertarian, which is what, of course, the creeps try to paint me as. I'm entitled to disagree and dissent from the establishment, and right now, Obama and the Democrats are that establishment.

[Coito ergo sum]

Sorry coito. I was unclear in framing that comment. It was intended as a general comment to this discussion and not specifically aimed at you, even though I used your text as a stepping stone.

[Coito ergo sum]

Ok, sorry to get carried away and lump you in with Seth. This happens when I have to deal with the sort of ridiculous conspiracy nonsense that Seth peddles. But to be clear here, Seth DOES believe the whole western world is socialist. He really DOES believe it will end in GULAGS and millions of deaths. I shit you not. He really believes this stuff. So, as long as you don't believe any of this nonsense, then I will once again apologise for possibly misrepresenting your argument.

I disagree with Seth all the time. Check out the "secular debate about abortion" thread.

Most of it is a mixed economy with more or less degree of government control over different industries, depending on the country. I never said that socialized medicine was socialism - but it's socialist, isn't it?

Well it depends how it is enacted. In many (most) countries, a public UHC co-exists with a private system as well. Anyway, to be fair (to my argument), you were using UHC as one piece of evidence that Obama is a socialist.

...holds many leftist views...I think he leans left. I think he thinks socialism is good.

I don't know why other folks who think socialism is a good thing would be so adamant about demanding that nobody allude to Obama as holding any socialist views. If he doesn't agree with the left leaning folks, why do the left leaning folks like him, vote for him and support his policies? Because his views are right wing? That's why people on the left of the political spectrum vote for him and support his policies? Really?

To remind you, the CONSERVATIVES in (if i'm not mistaken) ALL western democracies other than the US support their respective UHC systems. The right wingers support this (and many other) social programs. I certainly would use that as evidence that the leaders of those parties are socialists.

Some leaders of western countries have been socialists. France has had socialist prime ministers, right? The fact that a country has UHC does not mean that the leaders are socialist, or that the country is a "marxist socialist" country. Like I said, most western countries are mixed economies. And, UHC is not a single, determinative litmus test of what to call an economy. In some respects, telling when a mixed economy should rightly be called socialist is like telling when a lake should rightly be called a sea, or a pond a lake. It's not really always clear.

If it was capitalist then it would involve a free market for medical products and services, wouldn't it? We know it's not capitalist - so if it's not socialist - then what would you say it is?

Well clearly it is a mix, isn't it?

And, clearly I did say that most western economies are mixed economies, didn't I?

And this proves that social democracies aren't really socialist economies in sheeps clothing. They truly are a mix, and a mix that when more social leaning has proven to be far greater for it's citizens.

[/quote]

Right. Like I said. Mixed economies.

And, here we have that rare instance in these forum debates where two people cast aside preconceived notions and discard the aspersions and actually - gasp - dare we say it - clarify the terms each other is using - understand each other's points of view - and actually reach what might be termed agreement on an issue.