Ratz Drama Mafia game thread

[charlou]

zigmen, who did you protect last night?

[charlou]

And the night before ... ?

[M]

His defense of M's noobness ... I thought he and M are the final two scum ... I decided to hit him because if he flipped scum, he'd have to be the don if he viewed as town.

Gonzo also subtly defended Mantis yesterday ... I need to go back and read his posts to find it again ...

I thought he voted Mantis. Will check.

[M]

Sorry I bolded that 'voted'.... it was supposed to be underlined.

[charlou]

I've been reading back over day four.

unvote


Now to reread day three.

[charlou]

I've been reading back over day four five.

unvote


Now to reread day three four.

Corrected.

[charlou]

Day four zigmen says the game is down to the wire ... not the case. He's creating urgency where it wasn't necessary ... role claims in the same post, and casts doubt on Denny's role claim. He also claims his scumminess was due to his special role: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 57#p763257

It's down to the wire, and we need results.

I'm the Doc.

N1 Oblivion
N2 Feck
N3 Denny.

Question 1) With 2 kills last night, i would assume my protection of Denny did nothing. Why is he still alive 2 days after outing?

I'm all ears, but I can't help but think that Denny was recruited or was Scum to begin with.

Question 2) We need to discuss possible game design elements. Respawing recruiters? Check. What else can we expect?

Question 3) I can't really blame anyone who has been on me for looking Scummy. I've been trying to lay low to avoid looking like a special, but what about Higgs? She realized I misread the OP and left her vote on me anyway. Does anyone see this as suspicious, or is it just me?

Also Gonzo pings like crazy.

Forgive for outing perhaps too soon, but I really don't trust Denny since he's still alive, and I think we need to know who is who at this point.

He says: "Gonzo pings like crazy" ... yet zigmen doesn't go after Gonzo at all. Instead he proceeds to go after several other players, the seer and vanilla town players.

Zigmen votes Higgs: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 33#p763633

Vote Higgs

After sleeping on it, I think her vote from yesterday still pings. I made a mistake, so she voted for me. Fair enough. But she the realised that I had caught my own mistake, and she left her vote on me anyway. That alone is only fairly scummy. But, she called my vote on her a revenge vote.

Higgs, having a reason to vote for somebody doesn't make it a revenge vote.

Revenge votes then excuses his own revenge vote.

Contra votes Zigmen: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 04#p764004

It's down to the wire, and we need results.

I'm the Doc.

N1 Oblivion
N2 Feck
N3 Denny.

Question 1) With 2 kills last night, i would assume my protection of Denny did nothing. Why is he still alive 2 days after outing?

I'm all ears, but I can't help but think that Denny was recruited or was Scum to begin with.

Question 2) We need to discuss possible game design elements. Respawing recruiters? Check. What else can we expect?

Question 3) I can't really blame anyone who has been on me for looking Scummy. I've been trying to lay low to avoid looking like a special, but what about Higgs? She realized I misread the OP and left her vote on me anyway. Does anyone see this as suspicious, or is it just me?

Also Gonzo pings like crazy.

Forgive for outing perhaps too soon, but I really don't trust Denny since he's still alive, and I think we need to know who is who at this point.

empasis added

Zigman, the part which is bolded bothers ne a bit. Denny could easily be alive because a) nobody bothered trying to kill him because they assumed the dic was protecting him.

Textbook Mafia 101 says that there is a 50/50 chance that YOU are scum because THAT is the one claim an actual doc would not want to counter because it would leave him exposed - ESPECIALLY at a crutial moment for town such as now.
I think you are scum. I also think that everyone played right into your plan to elliminate many possibilities and narrow them down to the few that haven't claimed. If you are indeed town then it was a stupid maneuver to claim; if you are scum or cult - nice work but it's time to put you to rest...

unvote; vote: Zigman

Zigmen unvotes Higgs and votes Contra: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 16#p764016

Clever, Contra.

Unvote
Vote Contra

Voting an uncounterclaimed Town Special.

Another revenge vote.

I think Zigmen claimed "doc" early due to the game set up being scum/cult/town and town having a vig and seer, a third special might be unlikely. He was prepared to bluff, if necessary. It's interesting that Gonzo (the Don) was pushing for role outing the day before.

The following post: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 20#p764020

Denny, Scum never goes immediately for an outed Seer. At least, not that I've seen. It made more sense to protect you on N3.

The big question is, why didn't they go for you on N3 if they gave you a pass on N2? There were still two kills last night.

I am having a difficult time figuring what sort of game design could lead you to safely claim Seer. Perhaps the Scum team has no Don?

If I were Scum, I would take that as a possibility that there was no Seer at all in this game . . .

For now, I'm holding back voting for you.

But, as you've seen before, a outed Seer who is still alive at endgame is usually bad news for Town. No?

First paragraph: Bollocks. Scum may or may not have the wits to go immediately for an outed seer. I've seen both scenarios.

Second paragraph: To create further confusion.

Third paragraph: This doesn't make sense ... Since when is there no Don when town has a seer.

Fifth paragraph: A lot of finger pointing and doubt casting, but no vote.

Sixth paragraph: "But, as you've seen before, a outed Seer who is still alive at endgame is usually bad news for Town. No?" Ummm .. no ... This is all spin. Any town, especially a special, still alive at end game is GOOD for town.

[charlou]

Starting in on Higgs, who at this point in the game made a perfectly reasonable comment about outing: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 41#p764041

I don't like the mass outing. I don't like forcing specials to out.

Nor do you like answering questions directed to you?

Here he again points a finger at Denny and casts doubt on Denny's role claim, and gives all the reasons why Denny is lying, then says Denny should be left alive to use his view role again. Zigmen again says having Denny alive at end game is bad for town. He's hedging by creating doubt about Denny's credibility, while at the same time not actively voting for the seer: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 83#p764483

You guys who are voting denny because you think UT was really the seer are making a big mistake it is very clear from the different description that denny is the seer and UT was a tracker.

No, I think I was the only player who initially made that mistake.

The suspicion on Denny, imho, is more based on his scummy-looking posts, conveniently useless views, and the knowledge that there is a recruitment factor in this game.

Fwiw, I do not think Denny should be killed today. If he's Town, he will get us another view (hopefully) and also tie up the Scum team to use a NK on him. If he's Scum, he will probably live and possibly give us a hint based on his next view.

In any case, I cannot see Denny as a safe player to have in the endgame. I'm sure he knows this and understands why.

No offense, Denny, but you have to go at some point.

If you are Town, Scum may rely on the suspicion on you to force Town to kill you. The longer they wait, the more views we will get. Also, in a recruit game, your Town views are becoming less valuable. You really need to strike gold tonight.

ETA Crossposting with Higgs~

Having another flimsy go at Higgs: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 89#p764489

So, the mass out bugs me, I"ve been wondering about gonzo because of that. I know that it's more common in other sites and gonzo seems to play a different sort of mafia but still. Zigmen is the first one to start the stupid wifom about denny and it's weird how he's still so butthurt that I voted for him. I'm wondering about charlou too. MZ was seeming a little suspicious, and now with charlous subbing in i'm wondering if it was a scum to scum sub. That would take us to contra being scum though which I haven't actually analyzed.

This is not your Town game.

And again: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 22#p764522

I think a mass out is usually a bad idea. And it was suggested before you were out Zig. It causes specials to out. The suggestion made Gonzo seem scummy to me. I have no problem outing my role if that's an issue.

The pro-town thing to do would be to help me sift through the logic I've used, not get defensive.

Note, "pro-town" here means "help Zigmen". He also casts aspersions on Higgs genuine reply by claiming she's defensive. She was actually cooperative and thoughtful with her comment there.

Here he unvotes Contra and votes nellikin - he's the third on the nellikin bandwagon. No explanation given. http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 67#p764667

Unvote

Vote Nelli

I think Higgs and Gonzo are Scum as well.

And I'm not sure that th recruiter role respawns indefinately. How could Town ever win if the recruiter respawned every night. I think that the recruiter was limited to one replacement.

IOW, I think we're down to Scum vs. Town.

Scum don't protect scum? Then Zigmen takes Gonzo of his radar, even though noone's even really going after Gonzo, and conveniently ignoring the Don possibility: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 39#p764739

What a cluster.

Anyone have a count?

Higgs or Nelli are wise votes. Jerome is a stupid vote. We need to get this together, folks, or Scum will just pile onto Jerome.

And for the players who think I'm possibly Scum protecting Scum, let me ask you this: When have you ever seen that happen? Scum don't protect their teammates. Jerome ALWAYS cracks under pressure when he's Scum, despite the coaching of his team. We've seen Jerome with a cool head, yes?

I'm temporarlily taking Gonzo off my radar based on Denny's view.

And Charlou's post needs to be understood clearly. If she read her original role-pm, she could not be Scum who came back as Town. She was either Town/Town, Town/Scum or Scum/Scum. And I stand by my 4% chance of Contra being Scum based on this.

On three players now with no good reason: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 53#p764753

I'm good with either Nelli of Higgs. I see M as a possibility, of course. My vote is on Nelli as well.

Town should get over to Nelli now.

I'm gonna watch this thread and see who pops by doesn't get on the Nelli BW.

This request with no good reason given: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 82#p764782

Vig, please kill Higgs. Thanks.

Heh, a little thumbs up to the Don: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 45#p764845

Good analysis, Gonzo.

[charlou]

Day Five ...

"Gonzo was cleared by Denny": http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 37#p765137

Vote Gonzo

Gonzo was cleared by Denny. We now know Denny was the Seer.

At best, Gonzo might be a recruit.

Bad vote.

Vote Higgs

At best a recruit? How about THE DON? Again, conveniently ignores an obvious point that is raised in every game: No one is cleared by the seer while the Don remains in play. Note also that Denny's views are now conveniently accepted as useful.

No concern about finding out how nelli came to be lynched .. no desire to look at the bandwagon: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 38#p765138

Only one casualty last night. A successful protection by Zig perhaps.
Night one had only one casualty as well however someone did make a daykill that day.

I really thought nellikin would flip scum or cultist.
Higgs and M were on my shortlist too but I'm not even going to vote yet until I've had time to go back over things - apparetly, my scumdar is broken!

Still pretty sure about Higgs and M but I was pretty sure about nellikin yesterday too and look what happened.
Not really certain that any of this matters anyway.

Nelli was a surprise, but we have a shorter list, today.

Begins a strong campaign against Higgs with no solid reasoning, casts doubt and suspicion on anyone who disagrees: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 11#p765311

M, you're right. He should speak for himself. His vote on a cleared player is typical of his failure to think through the evidence. Sorry to bash him for that, but it is common for him to make mistakes like we've seen today. He does that whether he's Town or Scum. They have a saying for that on TR that I will not repeat here. It basically says that poor decisions do not equal scumminess, but it says so in TR fashion whichg is inconsistant with Friendly Mafia.

And no, I'm not his mentor.

But, he has his Scum tells. He's been under preassure. He hasn't flailed. I'd bet the farm that he's Town.

Higgs know this full well. Her vote is a way of preying on the less-than-thought-out style of Jerome. It's scummy, and she knows it.

Also, I'm still leaning to the recruits being snuffed out for the reasons I've already stated.

We need to whack a Scum today. Higgs is it, as far as I'm concerned.

We need to unify our votes. I'm watching every vote that doesn't land on Higgs as a Scum tell at this point.

To me, the evidence is overwhelming against her. She doesn't bitch and whine when she's town. She doesn't spread wifom when she's town. And she certainly does not fucking vote for a Jerome who isn't flailing.

That's 3 strikes. She's out.

I've played dozens of games with her. I've been Scum with her. I know her game as well as she knows Jerome's game.

She's scum, folks. And watch for anyone who won't vote for her today.

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 33#p765333

Seeing as that we lost two town and haven't hit ENDGAME - I am guessing the cult was destroyed. Since charlou's claim to have already seen contra's role has not been confirmed I am assuming she is the serial killer or scum. vote charlous Lynch all liars. I'm hoping somebody admits to making a mistake soon.

I'm not sure we've seen a lie, but I can understand your view. Charlou is not cleared and would make an excellent candidate for discussion tomorrow.

But for today, we cannot afford to have our votes spread around where Scum can swoop in and sway a total. We need unity.

I'm asking that you switch to Higgs today, and that we can get a vote total high enough to avoid it being toppled while we discuss things.

He made a big obvious case defending Jerome, then: http://rationalia.com/forum/posting.php ... 1&p=765345

Jerome, that goes for you too. I'm done sticking my neck out for you. Please get your vote on Higgs. Thanks.

Tries to get remaining players to out (Gonzo had previously been calling for all players to out): http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 60#p765360

We should start discussing targets for the Vig (or kindly SK or whatever).

I'm leaning Vig because the kills seem to have been on players who got a fair amount of votes each day.

Town:

1.Zigmen - Me. The Doc. Town.
5. Gonzo - Viewed by Denny as Town. Denny was confirmed as the Seer today. Town.
17. Jerome da Gnome - Town game. Poor decisions at times. No flail. No crazy claims. Town
18. Charlou/Contra - 96% cleared by analysis of the substitutions allowed. Town.

Scum:
7. Higgs - Scum. Whiny, Wifomy, and voting Townies. Scum.

Unknown:
9. Mantis
15. M
16. Magicziggy/Charlou

Of the three unknowns-

What is your name? What is your role? (it's for the record, so please answer even if you already have).
Who have you voted for each day? (Again, it's for the record).

What do you think about the other two unknowns?

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Tries to get Jerome to give more info regarding a lover: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 70#p765370

ETA:

Jerome. You claimed Vanilla Town.

Did you make any other hints towards being a lover?

If you cannot answer that because of role restrictions . . . Let me ask you like this.

Do you strongly like anyone in this game is a brother/sister purely platonic fashion that might be called friendship, but certainly not lovers?

No good reason for voting Nelli ... maintains Higgs is scum ... still no concern or sign of looking at who voted nelli and why: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 88#p765388

I dunno zig, he prolly istown and his lover is scum. He might not eve know what lovers implies. I'm try to vote for the best chance to get scum I' can think of. Why did you think Nellikins was that best bet?

I didn't think Nelli was the best bet. I thought you were the best bet.

I voted Nelli because my vote on you didn't attract anyone else's support.

Given the choice between the emerging BWs on Nelli and Jerome, I chose Nelli.

Town can't afford to spread their votes all over the place at this point.

M said: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 81#p765481

There may not have been a mass out, but there was a big push for one. I outed, so no harm in repeating that I am rachelbean, vanilla ratz. Going back to see who pushed to hard to get nelli.

You're right .. there was a big push for a mass out ... first from Gonzo, then from Zigmen.

Zigmen unwilling to give information, despite expecting the rest of us to open up with what we know: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 80#p765880

Again, does anyone here really believe that Aza would insert a scum/town lover duo with a damn cult faction in the game as well? It would break the game if either of them had been recruited because one of the two would know who the other scum were! Think, ffs!

Zig, who did you protect last night?

And let Scum know who is unporotected tonight? I can't protect the same player two consecutive nights. They know this.

[charlou]

Day Six, so far ...

Zigmen has no concern about the Higgs bandwagon which he instigated and pushed for. Asks the vig/sk to out. Votes M with no reasoning: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 99#p766699

1.Zigmen
9. Mantis
15. M
16. Magicziggy/Charlou

4 left and the game is not over. That means 1 Scum left.

It also means that we cannot miss Scum today, unless I have a succesful block tonight or our NKer helps us succesfully.

Scum would not have killed their own Don, so we can assume that our other NKer is a Vig, or at very least pro-town.

NKer, even if you are the SK, you should out immediately. You have helped town and proven yourself to us. We are all about killing Scum today, not an Indy. If your win condition is last-man-standing, that's okay too. I hope I speak for Town as a whole when I make this offer.

I didn't think JDG was actually a lover . . . but I'm glad Higgs was correct, as well as a few others.

Vote M

Zigmen unvotes M. Asks me for rationale behind my Gonzo hit. Logs out.




VOTE ZIGMEN

[Zigmen]

Charlou . . .

I appreciate the work you've put into those posts, but you're way off base.

Now, I know I've made some mistakes, but I'm hardly scummy.

First, I do believe you're the SK, and not a Vig. It doesn't matter, though. We would be idiots to avoid killing Scum today. You're clear, either way. Gonzo was viewed as Town by a confirmed Seer. You targeting Gonzo was an attempt to narrow the field, as far as I can tell.

Regardless, it doesn't matter now anyway. Not to Town, anyway. If we lynch the SK, we will likely get wiped out overnight anyway.

It may matter to you, though.

If your win condition as SK is last-man-standing, your best bet is to kill Town today, force nightfall, and hope for Scum to target Town instead of you.

What leads me to believe this to be accurate is that you asked me who I protected the past 2 nights. This knowledge is the one chip we have left in our pocket. Why would I make this public at this point? Scum would then know who would be unprotected tonight. Right?

And so would you . . .

So I propose a different option:

Please help us nail the final scum today. I understand that this only helps you if your win condition is survival. But, if you are Town, as you claim, then scumhunting is where your effort should be.

I'm Town, and can prove it. How?

I'm an outed Special with no counterclaim. I also went all out yesterday to protect JDG (Who was town). You may think that only Scum could have been so sure about JDG's alignment, but ask yourself this.If Jerome could have been an easy lynch for the past 2 days (if not for my defense of him), why would I protect him? To prove my Towniness? I'm already proved as an outed special . . .

Granted, i didn't believe he was truly a lover, but in the end, he was quite a prize for Scum to kill. And Scum was forced to waste a NK to get at him because of my defense of him.

Higgs could not understand that Jerome was Town, so she looked the scummiest to me. Thus my vote on her.

Now, as far as I can tell, you and I are really not the valuable targets for today. You die, Scum wins tonight in all likelihood. I die, and Scum wins in all likelihood.

That leaves M and Mantis as our choices.

If we guess wrong, we go into tonight with two ways to win:

1) I may succesfully protect someone from the Scum NK
2) You may kill the final Scum before they can strike.

But, if I die (and you realise that you killed the Town Doc), you'll only have one way to win tonight.

You may not like this plan, but it's all we have. You need to get your vote off me and start focussing on M and Mantis.

You know I'm leaning toward M. Why? M had an opportunity to mayor vote for me but failed to do so, even after i unvoted. I should be the logical choice for mayor.

You are an illogical choice for mayor because you could be the SK posing as Vig. We'd have no way to know, except that you had a "hunch" to NK the only viewed player on the roster, hoping to kill the Don.

Personally, i don't buy that but, like i said, it doesn't matter now anyway. You will not die today and Town has no way to kill at night if you're the SK.

But, even if you are the SK, I hope you see your way to helping Town win today.

And I'm not the right player to lynch . . .

[charlou]

M and Mantis, I hope you read my posts and Zig's response carefully. Zigmen is now reiterating arguments I've already commented on in my posts. He's also more concerned with buddying up to me, despite trying to make out that I'm an SK, and us lynching one of you because that's how he hopes to win this for scum.

[Mantisdreamz]

Zigmen, I'm Gawdzilla, the vigillante. The first three nights MZ hit irre, UT and Adem. The fourth night I didn't hit anyone. Last night I hit Gonzo.

Our last scum is either M or Mantis.

If you look back at the days, I brought up several (!!) times that Gonzo might be the DON.

I wouldn't be doing that if he was my scum partner.

M or Charlou

vote M

[Zigmen]

M and Mantis, I hope you read my posts and Zig's response carefully. Zigmen is now reiterating arguments I've already commented on in my posts. He's also more concerned with buddying up to me, despite trying to make out that I'm an SK, and us lynching one of you because that's how he hopes to win this for scum.

What do you care if I think you're the SK? We'd be idiots to try to lynch an Indy today and we have no way to kill you at night.

I don't understand why you're upset by this?

I only bring it up so that I can appeal to your logic and try to offer you a chance to win as well.

The only reasom you'd want to lynch the only cleared Town play left (like when you killed the only viewed Town player last night on a hunch) would be if you have a last-man-standing win condition.

[Zigmen]

Zigmen, I'm Gawdzilla, the vigillante. The first three nights MZ hit irre, UT and Adem. The fourth night I didn't hit anyone. Last night I hit Gonzo.

Our last scum is either M or Mantis.

If you look back at the days, I brought up several (!!) times that Gonzo might be the DON.

I wouldn't be doing that if he was my scum partner.

M or Charlou

vote M

Not Charlou.

She's an outed Vig, who might be the SK. Either way, she's not Scum.

Vote M