The Political Brain

[pErvinalia]

And by the way, to say that the health care reform was "highly progressive" is just laughable. It was nothing more than a big fat golden cheque for the corporations (i.e. the insurers).

What they wanted was not what they got.

Well he's not much of an ideologue then, is he? What kind of radical marxist/communist/lesbian/socialist sells out his radical/ideological/indoctrinating/evil principles for... well, for what?

I agree, what they got is a clusterfuck. But, what they wanted, and what the President's 'druthers were is single payer government run health care. Socialized medicine.

You do realise that "socialized medicine" is not Socialism, right? I think virtually all western developed nations have socialised medicine of some form (certainly far more socialised than what Obama originally proposed). Are you claiming that the whole of the western world is socialist?

[Coito ergo sum]

The Communist Party USA actively supported Obama during the primary election...

Do you think they still support him (outside of a two horse race with a bunch of theocratic lunatics)? Seriously?

Yes.

and their leader Sam Webb recently stated: "Just look at the new lay of the land: a friend of labor and its allies sits in the White House." He went on to enthusiastically discuss Obama's agenda to nationalize the American financial system, the Federal Reserve Bank, and private industries such as energy and various other sectors. "All these – and many other things – are within OUR reach now... an opportunity of a lifetime," said Webb. So, that's what the Communist Party USA thinksthought of him.

FIFY.

You allege, without any evidence, that the thoughts about him have changed. It's not been that long. 2 years since he got elected. Show me where their support is withdrawn.

Obama received the endorsement of the Chicago branch of the Democratic Socialists of America for an Illinois state senate seat in 1996.

Do you think they would still support him (outside of a two horse race with a bunch of theocratic lunatics)?

I have no evidence to suggest that they don't. They've not, like the Communist Party of the USA, said anything to the contrary.

Obama admitted that he regularly attended communist conferences at Cooper Union College. Obama endorsed Bernie Sanders, who was the first self-described socialist to be elected to the U.S. Senate. The National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings placed only one Senator who had voted a more socialistic agenda than Sanders: Obama.

Umm, Obama GAVE TAX CUTS TO THE RICH.

No, he did not. What sort of tripe is this? I fucking pay taxes and file tax returns. What tax cut are you referring to?

One, he WANTED to reverse the Bush tax cuts. He couldn't get that because of opposition FROM the right. If you followed this issue at all - the one thing Obama wanted was a complete repeal of the Bush tax cuts, and if he didn't have vehement opposition from conservative democrats he would have gotten it. Obama, however, did not cut the tax rates for ANYONE. Show me where the tax rates have been cut - please. The only thing that happened is the Bush tax cuts from 10 years ago were extended. That's not a tax cut, nor is it "for the rich" alone - it was for every tax bracket, right on down to those making next to nothing.

...with all due respect to those here who think Obama is "right wing." I mean, come the fuck on.... really?

Yes really. As I say to all Americans who think Obama and his administration is left-wing - what is your experience of the rest of the world? Are you aware of what passes for right wing and left wing in the rest of the developed world?

Your experience with the US is bollocks. And, yes, I am aware of what passes for right wing and left wing in the rest of the developed world.

You're not paying attention to what Obama WANTS - he hasn't succeeded in getting what he wants in every area, that's for sure. And, good thing. Based on what Obama wants, has said he wants, and has tried, he would fit in nicely on the left side of the spectrum in most European countries.

[pErvinalia]

Just now in January, 2010, the Obama Administration proposed nationalizing the student loan industry.

Oh noes!!1! Students can get cheap loans that benefit the intellectual wealth of the nation (and probably boosting employment to boot). It's Stalin all over again.

He may not "be" a Marxist, but he sure sympathizes with them and is heading in directions they like. And, he sure as FUCK is not "right." That's coffee-spitting funny, the allegation that Obama is a right winger. Bwah - fucking - hah hhahaha...

You need to get out and see some of the world. Seriously.

I'd venture to guess I've seen a lot more of it than you.

That's objectively false, given you can say things like Obama isn't a right winger. Seriously. Obama's administration would be plain old vanilla "right" at best, and often "far right", in the rest of the western world. It's likely he would never get elected in most of the rest of the developed world for being too far right (and I'm saying this based on his actions, not the lies he said before the election).

[Seth]

Basically he knew some people. So far, we have as evidence from Seth that Obama knew some people. Weigh that against the evidence that says that Obama is a corporate shill (TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH). Actions speak a hell of a lot louder than words, and Seth doesn't even have 'words'. He's only got acquaintances and empty rhetoric.

Evidently your complaint is not that he's not a Marxist, but that he's not a dutiful enough Marxist to suit your political desires because he's not wearing a Che tee-shirt and a beret while waving the hammer and sickle and shouting "Kill the bourgeoisie!"

As I said, he's a crypto-Marxist Progressive mole who will do what he can to advance Progressivism and Marxism without alarming the proletariat. He's the most dangerous kind of Marxist there is.

[Coito ergo sum]

And by the way, to say that the health care reform was "highly progressive" is just laughable. It was nothing more than a big fat golden cheque for the corporations (i.e. the insurers).

What they wanted was not what they got.

Well he's not much of an ideologue then, is he? What kind of radical marxist/communist/lesbian/socialist sells out his radical/ideological/indoctrinating/evil principles for... well, for what?

All politics involves pragmatism. I didn't call him a radical Marxist - I said that what he's done is left wing and he has espouse and fostered marxist ideas. He compromised to get part of the way to his goals. He wants much more than he knows he can get, so he'll get what he can and leave it to others to take the ball down the line. Everyone knows you can't just switch the US over to socialism in one fell swoop.

I agree, what they got is a clusterfuck. But, what they wanted, and what the President's 'druthers were is single payer government run health care. Socialized medicine.

You do realise that "socialized medicine" is not Socialism, right? I think virtually all western developed nations have socialised medicine of some form (certainly far more socialised than what Obama originally proposed). Are you claiming that the whole of the western world is socialist?

Of course it's not socialism, but it is socialist. It's government control of the means of production in that industry.

No, I'm not claiming that the whole of the western world is socialist. Most of it is a mixed economy with more or less degree of government control over different industries, depending on the country. I never said that socialized medicine was socialism - but it's socialist, isn't it? If it was capitalist then it would involve a free market for medical products and services, wouldn't it? We know it's not capitalist - so if it's not socialist - then what would you say it is? Fascist? Anarcho-syndicalist? What?

[Coito ergo sum]

Just now in January, 2010, the Obama Administration proposed nationalizing the student loan industry.

Oh noes!!1! Students can get cheap loans that benefit the intellectual wealth of the nation (and probably boosting employment to boot). It's Stalin all over again.

I never said it was anything to panic over. I said what it is. You are free to think it's a great idea, if you want. But, it is a socialist idea. I never said it was Stalinist. Can't you focus?

He may not "be" a Marxist, but he sure sympathizes with them and is heading in directions they like. And, he sure as FUCK is not "right." That's coffee-spitting funny, the allegation that Obama is a right winger. Bwah - fucking - hah hhahaha...

You need to get out and see some of the world. Seriously.

I'd venture to guess I've seen a lot more of it than you.

That's objectively false, given you can say things like Obama isn't a right winger. Seriously. Obama's administration would be plain old vanilla "right" at best, and often "far right", in the rest of the western world. It's likely he would never get elected in most of the rest of the developed world for being too far right (and I'm saying this based on his actions, not the lies he said before the election).

Obama is not a right winger. Judging by your flag in your avatar, I'd say you've been stuck down under too long. Being upside down must be sending all the blood rushing to your head and making you loopy. Actually visit the US or follow it's politics before you spout nonsense about it. LOL. Obama the "right winger."

You don't even know, obviously, what his "actions" are. Stop pretending that you do.

[Seth]

The Communist Party USA actively supported Obama during the primary election...

Do you think they still support him (outside of a two horse race with a bunch of theocratic lunatics)? Seriously?

and their leader Sam Webb recently stated: "Just look at the new lay of the land: a friend of labor and its allies sits in the White House." He went on to enthusiastically discuss Obama's agenda to nationalize the American financial system, the Federal Reserve Bank, and private industries such as energy and various other sectors. "All these – and many other things – are within OUR reach now... an opportunity of a lifetime," said Webb. So, that's what the Communist Party USA thinksthought of him.

FIFY.

Obama received the endorsement of the Chicago branch of the Democratic Socialists of America for an Illinois state senate seat in 1996.

Do you think they would still support him (outside of a two horse race with a bunch of theocratic lunatics)?

Yes, they do. Along with every other radical leftist and even left-leaning political organization in the nation, and many elsewhere. They understand what you do not: Obama is Marxism's best hope to advance the Marxist Progressive agenda in enormous ways that will be very, very difficult to reverse. That's why the Progressives in Congress rammed through the health care, banking and bailout bills while they still could. They know they can't achieve the ultimate goal of destroying capitalism and the United States right away, but they can use Obama to steal a march on liberty, and they are doing so in many, many ways, most of them beyond your ken.

Yes really. As I say to all Americans who think Obama and his administration is left-wing - what is your experience of the rest of the world? Are you aware of what passes for right wing and left wing in the rest of the developed world?

Again, your propagandistic Alinsky revisionism is transparent. Your strawman argument is just as weak. That Obama is not a card-carrying, flag-waving, out-in-the-open member of the CPUSA who has openly declared his hatred for capitalism and the United States does not mean that he's not a crypto-Marxist who has every intention of subverting the Constitution and forwarding the Marxist Progressive agenda. His actions, and his personal history, speak louder than your ignorant words.

[sandinista]

[

He knows a marxist. Is that your argument? Are you fucking serious?!?

I think it's more that he advocates Marxist ideas, like nationalizing various industries like banking, finance, healthcare, etc., and that his major influences in his life were Marxist - that he aligned himself politically early on with Marxists and that he was endorsed strongly by socialist parties in the US and the Communist Party USA. They think he's doing their work. Why shouldn't we believe them?

Because his actions aren't even slightly Marxists?

He may not "be" a Marxist, but he sure sympathizes with them and is heading in directions they like. And, he sure as FUCK is not "right." That's coffee-spitting funny, the allegation that Obama is a right winger. Bwah - fucking - hah hhahaha...

You need to get out and see some of the world. Seriously.

I would agree, haha, it is nice to see CES has a new buddy though, It's the CES/Seth comedy show!

[.Morticia.]

This - he's a marxist - no he's not - argument is hilarious.

Seth is calling him a marxist as a pejorative. The rest are saying, "no he's not, he doesn't deserve that compliment." LOL

QFT

[sandinista]

This - he's a marxist - no he's not - argument is hilarious.

Seth is calling him a marxist as a pejorative. The rest are saying, "no he's not, he doesn't deserve that compliment." LOL

QFT

He sure doesn't deserve the compiment...obama a marxist

[MiM]

Of course it's not socialism, but it is socialist. It's government control of the means of production in that industry.

No, I'm not claiming that the whole of the western world is socialist. Most of it is a mixed economy with more or less degree of government control over different industries, depending on the country. I never said that socialized medicine was socialism - but it's socialist, isn't it? If it was capitalist then it would involve a free market for medical products and services, wouldn't it? We know it's not capitalist - so if it's not socialist - then what would you say it is? Fascist? Anarcho-syndicalist? What?

It's all about where you put the bottom line isn't it? You are free to claim that only an absolutely free market is capitalism and any government involvement is marxist socialism, but then it is just as right (wrong) to claim that only total government control is socialism, and letting an old flower woman keep her meagre earnings is capitalistic exploit.

What you call Obamas politics does not tell anything about him, but a hell of a lot about you.

[sandinista]

Obama, damn commie! The guy is a right wing corporatist christian. Same as the rest of them (us pres)


Obama Budget Proposal: Cuts To Target Working Poor, Middle Class & Students

WASHINGTON -- Less than two months after signing tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans into law, President Barack Obama proposed a spending plan to Congress that cuts funding to programs that assist the working poor, help the needy heat their homes, and expand access to graduate-level education, undermining the kind of community-based organizations that helped Obama launch his political career in Chicago.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/1 ... 22689.html

[pErvinalia]

The Communist Party USA actively supported Obama during the primary election...

Do you think they still support him (outside of a two horse race with a bunch of theocratic lunatics)? Seriously?

Yes.

Do you have any evidence for this? Do you really think they would support him if there was a true communist alternative?

and their leader Sam Webb recently stated: "Just look at the new lay of the land: a friend of labor and its allies sits in the White House." He went on to enthusiastically discuss Obama's agenda to nationalize the American financial system, the Federal Reserve Bank, and private industries such as energy and various other sectors. "All these – and many other things – are within OUR reach now... an opportunity of a lifetime," said Webb. So, that's what the Communist Party USA thinksthought of him.

FIFY.

You allege, without any evidence, that the thoughts about him have changed. It's not been that long. 2 years since he got elected. Show me where their support is withdrawn.

I'm suggesting that his actions and what the democrats have produced since being in power are anathema to the communist ideal. Any rational analysis would lead one to this point. The onus is on you to show that they still support him and the democrats. And once again, don't forget that I qualified my remarks in the context of a two horse race with an opposition party consisting of theocratic corporatists.

Obama received the endorsement of the Chicago branch of the Democratic Socialists of America for an Illinois state senate seat in 1996.

Do you think they would still support him (outside of a two horse race with a bunch of theocratic lunatics)?

I have no evidence to suggest that they don't. They've not, like the Communist Party of the USA, said anything to the contrary.

Have you looked? I'm honestly not going to, as I don't really care. If they are supporting him, it is because of what I have suggested: The alternative is a bunch of theocratic corporatists. And besides, there are plenty of socialists and communists on RatSkep who are thoroughly offended by what Obama and the democrats have done while in office. I'm happy to accept their view.

Obama admitted that he regularly attended communist conferences at Cooper Union College. Obama endorsed Bernie Sanders, who was the first self-described socialist to be elected to the U.S. Senate. The National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings placed only one Senator who had voted a more socialistic agenda than Sanders: Obama.

Umm, Obama GAVE TAX CUTS TO THE RICH.

No, he did not. What sort of tripe is this? I fucking pay taxes and file tax returns. What tax cut are you referring to?

The one that was due to expire that he and the democrats extended.

One, he WANTED to reverse the Bush tax cuts.

He didn't have to do ANYTHING to reverse the cuts. They were automatically set to reverse with no action at all. If he wanted it, he could have gotten it.

Obama, however, did not cut the tax rates for ANYONE. Show me where the tax rates have been cut - please. The only thing that happened is the Bush tax cuts from 10 years ago were extended. That's not a tax cut, nor is it "for the rich" alone - it was for every tax bracket, right on down to those making next to nothing.

Ridiculous semantics. The cut was set to expire. He took positive action to extend it. That is functionally the same as cutting them.

...with all due respect to those here who think Obama is "right wing." I mean, come the fuck on.... really?

Yes really. As I say to all Americans who think Obama and his administration is left-wing - what is your experience of the rest of the world? Are you aware of what passes for right wing and left wing in the rest of the developed world?

Your experience with the US is bollocks. And, yes, I am aware of what passes for right wing and left wing in the rest of the developed world.

Really? So how is it you can claim with a straight face that Obama is a far left winger leading a right-wing party (because that's exactly what they are)? Why the hell would a bunch of right-wingers allow a supposed Marxist lead their party?

You're not paying attention to what Obama WANTS - he hasn't succeeded in getting what he wants in every area, that's for sure. And, good thing. Based on what Obama wants, has said he wants, and has tried, he would fit in nicely on the left side of the spectrum in most European countries.

You say that like being on the left side of the spectrum in Europe is a bad thing. The left in Europe is mainstream. Europe (and the rest of the western world - particularly Canada and Australia) shit all over the US in most OECD measures. If the US continues to move to the right, as it has done for the last 30 or so years, it is only going to fall further behind the rest of the western world in objective standards.

[pErvinalia]

Basically he knew some people. So far, we have as evidence from Seth that Obama knew some people. Weigh that against the evidence that says that Obama is a corporate shill (TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH). Actions speak a hell of a lot louder than words, and Seth doesn't even have 'words'. He's only got acquaintances and empty rhetoric.

Evidently your complaint is not that he's not a Marxist, but that he's not a dutiful enough Marxist to suit your political desires because he's not wearing a Che tee-shirt and a beret while waving the hammer and sickle and shouting "Kill the bourgeoisie!"

No, I'm saying that his actions paint him purely as a right-wing corporate whore, just like the rest of them. He might have had wet dreams about being a marxist many years ago, but actions speak far far louder than words.

As I said, he's a crypto-Marxist Progressive mole who will do what he can to advance Progressivism and Marxism without alarming the proletariat. He's the most dangerous kind of Marxist there is.

No response can do justice to the shear amount of conspiratorial hyperbole in this statement. I feel dirty just addressing it thus.

[pErvinalia]

I agree, what they got is a clusterfuck. But, what they wanted, and what the President's 'druthers were is single payer government run health care. Socialized medicine.

You do realise that "socialized medicine" is not Socialism, right? I think virtually all western developed nations have socialised medicine of some form (certainly far more socialised than what Obama originally proposed). Are you claiming that the whole of the western world is socialist?

Of course it's not socialism, but it is socialist. It's government control of the means of production in that industry.

No, I'm not claiming that the whole of the western world is socialist.

Ok, sorry to get carried away and lump you in with Seth. This happens when I have to deal with the sort of ridiculous conspiracy nonsense that Seth peddles. But to be clear here, Seth DOES believe the whole western world is socialist. He really DOES believe it will end in GULAGS and millions of deaths. I shit you not. He really believes this stuff. So, as long as you don't believe any of this nonsense, then I will once again apologise for possibly misrepresenting your argument.

Most of it is a mixed economy with more or less degree of government control over different industries, depending on the country. I never said that socialized medicine was socialism - but it's socialist, isn't it?

Well it depends how it is enacted. In many (most) countries, a public UHC co-exists with a private system as well. Anyway, to be fair (to my argument), you were using UHC as one piece of evidence that Obama is a socialist. To remind you, the CONSERVATIVES in (if i'm not mistaken) ALL western democracies other than the US support their respective UHC systems. The right wingers support this (and many other) social programs. I certainly would use that as evidence that the leaders of those parties are socialists.

If it was capitalist then it would involve a free market for medical products and services, wouldn't it? We know it's not capitalist - so if it's not socialist - then what would you say it is?

Well clearly it is a mix, isn't it? And this proves that social democracies aren't really socialist economies in sheeps clothing. They truly are a mix, and a mix that when more social leaning has proven to be far greater for it's citizens.