A secular debate about eating meat.

[dj357]

Yeah, I'm with you on that lordp, I've tried it myself and I still strive to eat as little meat as possible but the problem is I find it even further degrading (even it's just sheer idealism on my part) to the animals that we have already slaughtered to waste the food they can give us and given the fact that until we reach global acceptance of meat substitutes these industries will continue to slaughter animals it would seem to be more detrimental not to partake of it. It's a fine line and I cross it on both sides regularly. :s

[lordpasternack]

Eh - the less meat you eat, the less animals are slaughtered to meet demand, the less livestock are raised for slaughter…

And on another facet of this issue, the dairy industry, and the way veal calves are treated in some cases, can also be quite objectionable. But I could honestly just never give up dairy!

[maiforpeace]

It was less than 100 years ago that we moved from more natural methods of farming meat and dairy to factory farming. Now, factory farmed meat and dairy comprises 99% of all products on the grocery shelves. I realize it's more expensive, but if everybody made a point of trying to purchase more of these products from sources that pasture their animals we can be much much more humane about how we farm animals than we are now. You don't have to stop eating meat all together, just reduce, or stop eating meat from factory farmed sources and create the demand for the humane sources.

[dj357]

Eh - the less meat you eat, the less animals are slaughtered to meet demand, the less livestock are raised for slaughter…

And on another facet of this issue, the dairy industry, and the way veal calves are treated in some cases, can also be quite objectionable. But I could honestly just never give up dairy!

Oh I do understand demand versus supply but the problem is one of reaching a critical mass point where so many people are choosing alternatives that the supply simply dries up in favour of the alternatives and as is common in situations like this my individual habit of refraining from meat consumption won't have a tangible effect upon this. You need only look at the fast food industries and supermarkets, the amount of waste they go through despite monitoring levels of demand versus supply is still very high and this pads the demand with false numbers. If we could even get that under control the world would be better off.

As for dairy, even as part of dieting measures I also could never give up dairy... And I agree that some of the treatment even in the dairy industry is atrocious...

@mai yes I agree if we could simply be more humane about the whole process until we reach global levels of alternative adoption then we would be living in a much more humane world. Even if we could get rid of the barbaric tradition of kosher/halal meat the world would be a better place.

[Warren Dew]

It was less than 100 years ago that we moved from more natural methods of farming meat and dairy to factory farming. Now, factory farmed meat and dairy comprises 99% of all products on the grocery shelves. I realize it's more expensive, but if everybody made a point of trying to purchase more of these products from sources that pasture their animals we can be much much more humane about how we farm animals than we are now. You don't have to stop eating meat all together, just reduce, or stop eating meat from factory farmed sources and create the demand for the humane sources.

Certainly this would help, though I don't think most people could afford to do it for 100% of their intake - certainly I can't. I note that the argument also applies to eggs, and perhaps to getting wild caught fish instead of farmed fish.

There remains the problem that, in the U.S., tax incentives favor the use of land to grow crops rather than to pasture animals.

[sandinista]

There's no reason why most of us can't go veggie already, dj - except that we like eating meat, and are used to it, and it's easy and convenient…

It was less than 100 years ago that we moved from more natural methods of farming meat and dairy to factory farming. Now, factory farmed meat and dairy comprises 99% of all products on the grocery shelves. I realize it's more expensive, but if everybody made a point of trying to purchase more of these products from sources that pasture their animals we can be much much more humane about how we farm animals than we are now. You don't have to stop eating meat all together, just reduce, or stop eating meat from factory farmed sources and create the demand for the humane sources.

I see what you're saying, and I do agree that the less meat an individual eats the better, but, there is no such thing as "humane meat", simply does not exist.

[hadespussercats]

Well, all life exists at the expense of other life, one way or the other, and even organic produce farming involves the death of creatures-- either from harvesting methods or from the simple fact that land is being taken from use as habitat and turned to other purposes, trees are felled, water is appropriated or affected by runoff, etc.

But I think responsible, mindful people can take measures, as Mai and others have suggested, to try to limit the adverse affects of their eating behaviors in the ways that are within their reasonable power. That's why I don't eat meat anymore, I try to buy local and/or organic whenever I can (or whenever I can afford it!), etc.

But I don't think eating meat is necessarily murderous. Unless, as others have pointed out, tigers and the like are considered murderous.

[Feck]

There's no reason why most of us can't go veggie already, dj - except that we like eating meat, and are used to it, and it's easy and convenient…

It was less than 100 years ago that we moved from more natural methods of farming meat and dairy to factory farming. Now, factory farmed meat and dairy comprises 99% of all products on the grocery shelves. I realize it's more expensive, but if everybody made a point of trying to purchase more of these products from sources that pasture their animals we can be much much more humane about how we farm animals than we are now. You don't have to stop eating meat all together, just reduce, or stop eating meat from factory farmed sources and create the demand for the humane sources.

I see what you're saying, and I do agree that the less meat an individual eats the better, but, there is no such thing as "humane meat", simply does not exist.

Well yes it does , just not commercially .

[nellikin]

What is "humane meat"? I tend to agree with Hades here - nature is beastly and animals kill animals to eat, so why shouldn't we.

My main reservations about meat-eating are to do with the agricultural impacts of modern-day animal husbandry. The greenhouse gas emissions from ruminants are enormous (which caused me to stop buying cow and sheep meat), but pigs and chickens are lower emitting. Kangaroo meat is virtually GHG neutral and isn't farmed, so that's a good option down-under. I love meat (especially bloody steaks and lamb, which give me guilt pangs) but try to limit myself to 1 - 2 serves a week.

[sandinista]

There's no reason why most of us can't go veggie already, dj - except that we like eating meat, and are used to it, and it's easy and convenient…

It was less than 100 years ago that we moved from more natural methods of farming meat and dairy to factory farming. Now, factory farmed meat and dairy comprises 99% of all products on the grocery shelves. I realize it's more expensive, but if everybody made a point of trying to purchase more of these products from sources that pasture their animals we can be much much more humane about how we farm animals than we are now. You don't have to stop eating meat all together, just reduce, or stop eating meat from factory farmed sources and create the demand for the humane sources.

I see what you're saying, and I do agree that the less meat an individual eats the better, but, there is no such thing as "humane meat", simply does not exist.

Well yes it does , just not commercially .

well, actually no it doesn't. Unless your talking about soy based fake "meat" products, but they are produced commercially. Unless the animal is killed because of old age or illness there is nothing "humane" about slaughtering a healthy animal.

[Warren Dew]

Well, all life exists at the expense of other life, one way or the other, and even organic produce farming involves the death of creatures-- either from harvesting methods or from the simple fact that land is being taken from use as habitat and turned to other purposes, trees are felled, water is appropriated or affected by runoff, etc.

Not to mention that vegetable life is still life.

[Feck]

There's no reason why most of us can't go veggie already, dj - except that we like eating meat, and are used to it, and it's easy and convenient…

It was less than 100 years ago that we moved from more natural methods of farming meat and dairy to factory farming. Now, factory farmed meat and dairy comprises 99% of all products on the grocery shelves. I realize it's more expensive, but if everybody made a point of trying to purchase more of these products from sources that pasture their animals we can be much much more humane about how we farm animals than we are now. You don't have to stop eating meat all together, just reduce, or stop eating meat from factory farmed sources and create the demand for the humane sources.

I see what you're saying, and I do agree that the less meat an individual eats the better, but, there is no such thing as "humane meat", simply does not exist.

Well yes it does , just not commercially .

well, actually no it doesn't. Unless your talking about soy based fake "meat" products, but they are produced commercially. Unless the animal is killed because of old age or illness there is nothing "humane" about slaughtering a healthy animal.

So as an example you would allow Red deer to reach epidemic proportions in the highlands of Scotland without any shooting ?

And what are you going to do about rabbits ? you just allow a population explosion ? even if it's a nature reserve they have denuded of all greenery and their resulting population crash in the winter will be anything but humane ?

Most of the venison I've eaten has been road kill ..is that me slaughtering animals ? .
Do just we allow rats and mice to live in grain stores and stables and our houses too ?

[epepke]

hmm funny, I don't like eating meat and my body is not designed to run on it as a part of a balanced diet.

Then don't. Pretty simple, really.

[sandinista]

double post...

[sandinista]

There's no reason why most of us can't go veggie already, dj - except that we like eating meat, and are used to it, and it's easy and convenient…

It was less than 100 years ago that we moved from more natural methods of farming meat and dairy to factory farming. Now, factory farmed meat and dairy comprises 99% of all products on the grocery shelves. I realize it's more expensive, but if everybody made a point of trying to purchase more of these products from sources that pasture their animals we can be much much more humane about how we farm animals than we are now. You don't have to stop eating meat all together, just reduce, or stop eating meat from factory farmed sources and create the demand for the humane sources.

I see what you're saying, and I do agree that the less meat an individual eats the better, but, there is no such thing as "humane meat", simply does not exist.

Well yes it does , just not commercially .

well, actually no it doesn't. Unless your talking about soy based fake "meat" products, but they are produced commercially. Unless the animal is killed because of old age or illness there is nothing "humane" about slaughtering a healthy animal.

So as an example you would allow Red deer to reach epidemic proportions in the highlands of Scotland without any shooting ?

And what are you going to do about rabbits ? you just allow a population explosion ? even if it's a nature reserve they have denuded of all greenery and their resulting population crash in the winter will be anything but humane ?

Most of the venison I've eaten has been road kill ..is that me slaughtering animals ? .
Do just we allow rats and mice to live in grain stores and stables and our houses too ?

Hey Feck, I don't know enough about Red deer in the Scotland Highlands to comment. Road kill...yes, humane, not slaughtered, accidentally killed. Not sure what rats and mice in your house have to do with "humane meat". Do you eat rats?

hmm funny, I don't like eating meat and my body is not designed to run on it as a part of a balanced diet.

Then don't. Pretty simple, really.

I don't...yes it is simple...really.