Political Assassinations

[Coito ergo sum]

We've heard a lot of talk over the past couple of days about the incivility of political discourse in the US. Implicit in much of the dialog is that things have gotten worse, and that we're entering a "new" age where the rhetoric in the US has gone to far, and is spawning political violence.

But, is it?

I wonder if, indeed, it is getting worse. And, I wonder, if indeed it is worse in the US than elsewhere. Perhaps some discussion and comparison of political assassination today as compared to historical events would be enlightening.

It occurred to me that, at least historically, this Giffords shooting should come as no real surprise. Such violent events are certainly always shocking to a peace loving people. But, perhaps the fact that we still find these things shocking reveals that we are still not desensitized to to it, and that these are, thankfully, extreme rarities.

In the US - 30 years ago, an assassin put a bullet in Ronald Reagan. A crazy man named Hinckley did it to become famous, and to impress Jodie Foster. We're all familiar with the successful attempt on Kennedy's life. Four American Presidents have been assassinated - Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley and Kennedy. I don't have a figure on Congresspeople. Maybe someone can supply that.

Elsewhere - just a few years ago in 2002, Pim Fortuyn was assassinated in Holland. A Serbian Prime Minister was assassinated in 2003. Ayaan Hirsi Ali was driven into hiding. Geert Wilders had threats against him as well. In 2008 there were shots fired at the Georgian prime minister. Anna Lindh, the Swedish Foreign Minister, was stabbed to death in Stockholm in 2003.

[Rum]

The murderer in this case was clearly pretty disturbed and from what I have read possibly mentally ill, but I wonder if he wasn't picking up on something - a vibe at least - the polarisation of American politics. Republicans and Democrats used to represent people across the social spectrum. From what I can see it is increasingly a case of the richer and the vested interests being Republican and the poorer and less well off - even those perhaps who would have been middle class a generation ago, tending to be Democrats. Then you seem to have a regional split too, with some of the more rural states tending to be anti-government and therefore more Republican.

I don't know American politics intimately, and this is probably just an impression, but I would be interested to know if it holds water for our transatlantics.

[Santa_Claus]

Violence is abhorred and made illegal within a society not because it is "bad" or "immoral" etc etc but because............it works. especially when coupled with the most powerful word in the human language. No.

Hit someone with an axe enough times and they will start to agree with you. or go squidgy. either way works. Politics, business, people all same same. But I would not want to live there. not again.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The shooter was a nut job.

[Atheist-Lite]

There's a wee bit of the 'White Damsel In Distress' about this story which is giving it extra legs in the press and therefore in the popular imagination. I don't think it is a reason to curb free speech by legal measures since laws based on singular cases are invariably bad laws. It is a wake up call for those who have something to say to be aware that the kooks in the audience might go for a literal translation of inflamatory rhetoric....but then people who don't consider the full dimensions of their audiences shouldn't be in politics in the first place should they?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[sandinista]

Violence is abhorred and made illegal within a society not because it is "bad" or "immoral" etc etc but because............it works.

Exactly, only correction is...violence is made illegal for the population. The government regularly uses violence in all forms, it's the states monopoly on force. The state, and state/corporate media seemingly abhors individual violent acts but celebrate state violence.

On the topic of political assassinations, the US has always used assassinations as a "legitimate" means of political discourse. When their own population simply follows the lead of their governement it shouldn't come as a surprise.

U.S. GOVERNMENT ASSASSINATION PLOTS

The U.S. bombing of Iraq, June 26, 1993, in retaliation for an alleged Iraqi plot to assassinate former president George Bush, "was essential," said President Clinton, "to send a message to those who engage in state-sponsored terrorism ... and to affirm the expectation of civilized behavior among nations." *

Following is a list of prominent foreign individuals whose assassination (or planning for same) the United States has been involved in since the end of the Second World War. The list does not include several assassinations in various parts of the world carried out by anti-Castro Cubans employed by the CIA and headquartered in the United States.

1949 - Kim Koo, Korean opposition leader

1950s - CIA/Neo-Nazi hit list of more than 200 political figures in West Germany
to be "put out of the way" in the event of a Soviet invasion

1950s - Chou En-lai, Prime minister of China, several attempts on his life

1950s, 1962 - Sukarno, President of Indonesia

1951 - Kim Il Sung, Premier of North Korea

1953 - Mohammed Mossadegh, Prime Minister of Iran

1950s (mid) - Claro M. Recto, Philippines opposition leader

1955 - Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India

1957 - Gamal Abdul Nasser, President of Egypt

1959, 1963, 1969 - Norodom Sihanouk, leader of Cambodia

1960 - Brig. Gen. Abdul Karim Kassem, leader of Iraq

1950s-70s - José Figueres, President of Costa Rica, two attempts on his life

1961 - Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier, leader of Haiti

1961 - Patrice Lumumba, Prime Minister of the Congo (Zaire)

1961 - Gen. Rafael Trujillo, leader of Dominican Republic

1963 - Ngo Dinh Diem, President of South Vietnam

1960s-70s - Fidel Castro, President of Cuba, many attempts on his life

1960s - Raúl Castro, high official in government of Cuba

1965 - Francisco Caamaño, Dominican Republic opposition leader

1965-6 - Charles de Gaulle, President of France

1967 - Che Guevara, Cuban leader

1970 - Salvador Allende, President of Chile

1970 - Gen. Rene Schneider, Commander-in-Chief of Army, Chile

1970s, 1981 - General Omar Torrijos, leader of Panama

1972 - General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Panama Intelligence

1975 - Mobutu Sese Seko, President of Zaire

1976 - Michael Manley, Prime Minister of Jamaica

1980-1986 - Muammar Qaddafi, leader of Libya, several plots and attempts upon his life

1982 - Ayatollah Khomeini, leader of Iran

1983 - Gen. Ahmed Dlimi, Moroccan Army commander

1983 - Miguel d'Escoto, Foreign Minister of Nicaragua

1984 - The nine comandantes of the Sandinista National Directorate

1985 - Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, Lebanese Shiite leader (80 people killed in the attempt)

1991 - Saddam Hussein, leader of Iraq

1993 - Mohamed Farah Aideed, prominent clan leader of Somalia

1998, 2001-2 - Osama bin Laden, leading Islamic militant

1999 - Slobodan Milosevic, President of Yugoslavia

2002 - Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Afghan Islamic leader and warlord

2003 - Saddam Hussein and his two sons

* Washington Post, June 27, 1993

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You missed a few.

[sandinista]

You missed a few.

so?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You missed a few.

so?

Just sayin'.

[Coito ergo sum]

Obviously, sandinista's post is off topic, and he must make this about how the US is a murderous country, because that's his thing.

And, I'm not going to go one-by-one on this list, but let's note, first, the lack of a citation or link on an obvious cut-and-pate. Google, reveals this list on places like "American Genocide" http://american-genocide.netfirms.com/h ... ation.html and Rense - Weapons of American State Terrorism - http://www.rense.com/general14/wap.htm

And, let's look at one of them -

Charles de Gaulle - he had many assassination attempts on his life (some say as many as 30 or 31). Some were by Algerian actors, trying get the French boot of their necks. You'll all recall de Gaulle's coverup of the 1961 massacre in Algeria by French forces. The assassination attempt listed in sandinista's list was actually carried out by a Frenchman, Jean-Bastien Thiery, who was executed by the French by firing squad. He had a number of French enemies and his opponents often described him as a dangerous dictator.

He also had attempts on his life, at least it's suspected, by the "OAS" (Organisation de l'armée secrète), and by a group of students with the French National Resistance Council in 1966 (they were going to blow him up with a car stuffed with dynamite, but they were caught the night before). There were French Generals who engaged in a coup de'tat in Algeria who tried to kill de Gaulle, too.

There is no evidence that the US government had anything at all to do with an attempted assassination of Charles De Gaulle, the president of a country that was our ally. Yes, de Gaulle spoke out against the Vietnam War (a war his country fought for 60 years before the US got involved), but he also took issue with much of British foreign policy.

I think that posting a big list without actually verifying the details, and without providing the source information where where the information was obtained, demonstrates, again, that this kind of thing is just posted here as a slur. It's posted in complete and reckless disregard for the truth.

No attempt on Charles de Gaulle was ever made by the US.

[sandinista]

his thing.

Obviously, sandinista's post is off topic, and he must make this about how the US is a murderous country, because that's his thing.

Obviously it is NOT off topic. What is the title of the OP "Political Assassinations" what am I talking about "Political Assassinations". Yah, so off topic. coito is being a moron...because it's his thing.

And, I'm not going to go one-by-one on this list, but let's note, first, the lack of a citation or link on an obvious cut-and-pate.

Of course you won't go "one by one" because you can't. Cut and paste? So what? Is that something new in forums. cut and paste

And, let's look at one of them -
Charles de Gaulle -

so...even after zilla has pointed out that there have been even more assassination attempts made by the US government you take issue with ONE example. One example...from the internet!! which doesn't prove there was not an assassination attempt on him by US agents anyway. No proof you say! haha, thats why they are generally called COVERT actions.


Thought about staring a new thread, but seeing as this is on topic I'll post it here. Tragic story. oh sorry, there is a cut and paste below...look away if offended!

Patrice Lumumba: 50 Years Later, Remembering the U.S.-Backed Assassination of Congo’s First Democratically Elected Leader

This week marks the 50th anniversary of the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, the first democratically elected leader of what is now known as the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Lumumba’s pan-Africanism and his vision of a united Congo gained him many enemies. Both Belgium and the United States actively sought to have him killed. The CIA ordered his assassination but could not complete the job. Instead, the United States and Belgium covertly funneled cash and aid to rival politicians who seized power and arrested Lumumba. On January 17, 1961, after being beaten and tortured, Lumumba was shot and killed.

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/1/21/p ... emembering

[Ian]

No proof you say! haha, thats why they are generally called COVERT actions.

In other words, you don't know much in the way of details either. And yet you're perfectly content to print your list of "facts", like the one about the US (Eisenhower himself giving a thumbs-up for this?) trying to kill Nehru.

I don't think Coito only took issue with ONE example (as you put it) because that's all that could be disputed. Like this post, I think he did so to make a point: your list is flawed. I also have a strong suspicion that he doesn't feel like getting into the nitty gritty with you on every name on the list, and I don't blame him.

My take (summary): Some of those (especially the older ones) are indeed accurate, some of those omit some important circumstances and details, and some are complete crap.

And some, such as US attempts to target Bin Laden (after the embassy bombings in Africa, after the Cole and after 9/11, btw) I support 100%. In 1998 we missed the opportunity to kill him and everyone within sight of the bastard, and had we done so we might very well have not experienced 9/11 and a decade of controversial foreign policy adventures in the middle east.

[sandinista]

No proof you say! haha, thats why they are generally called COVERT actions.

In other words, you don't know much in the way of details either. And yet you're perfectly content to print your list of "facts", like the one about the US (Eisenhower himself giving a thumbs-up for this?) trying to kill Nehru.

I don't think Coito only took issue with ONE example (as you put it) because that's all that could be disputed. Like this post, I think he did so to make a point: your list is flawed. I also have a strong suspicion that he doesn't feel like getting into the nitty gritty with you on every name on the list, and I don't blame him.

My take (summary): Some of those (especially the older ones) are indeed accurate, some of those omit some important circumstances and details, and some are complete crap.

And some, such as US attempts to target Bin Laden (after the embassy bombings in Africa, after the Cole and after 9/11, btw) I support 100%. In 1998 we missed the opportunity to kill him and everyone within sight of the bastard, and had we done so we might very well have not experienced 9/11 and a decade of controversial foreign policy adventures in the middle east.

I do have more details, most in rows of books, not on the internet. I frankly don't have the time to get into the "important circumstance and details", I've read whole books on the topic and am not going to bother spending hours typing about it here for the likes of coito. Again, like zilla pointed out, if the list is flawed it is because it is MISSING assassination examples. The point is...like I said before, when the US government actively seeks to assassinate political leaders they should not be too surprised when one of their own is shot. Whether you as an individual "agree" with an assassination attempt doesn't change the act. I agreed with Hinckley, doesn't necessarily make what he tried to do "right" even though I think it was.

[Coito ergo sum]

his thing.

Obviously, sandinista's post is off topic, and he must make this about how the US is a murderous country, because that's his thing.

Obviously it is NOT off topic. What is the title of the OP "Political Assassinations" what am I talking about "Political Assassinations". Yah, so off topic. coito is being a moron...because it's his thing.

Personal attack.

Also, the topic is about whether political assassinations are more common in the US or elsewhere, or whether it's about the same. Read the OP.

And, I'm not going to go one-by-one on this list, but let's note, first, the lack of a citation or link on an obvious cut-and-pate.

Of course you won't go "one by one" because you can't. Cut and paste? So what? Is that something new in forums. cut and paste

I get ripped on for long posts that go point by point by point because they're "tl/dr."

It's not that you "cut and pasted." Don't be obtuse. I clearly stated it's because you cut and pasted from somewhere and did not attribute your source or provide the link. Obviously, that's because you dragged it out of some "Americans are genocidal maniacs" website that doesn't vet anything for factual accuracy, as long as it is anti-American. You just swallow it whole because it fits your agenda.

And, I don't need to go one by one - even though I can - because it took me one scan of the ridiculous list to identify total falsehoods. One of which was French President De Gaulle which the US did not try to assassinate, but that doesn't matter to the people you rely on. They don't care. They just like to say it. After that, I'm not going to sit there and go one by one and provide proof that it's bullcrap - the onus is on you to demonstrate it's true. You post a list - I've shown that at least one item on that list is a bald-faced lie. I'll leave it to you to post some evidence that your list has any merit. A first step would be to cite your source for the information.

And, let's look at one of them -
Charles de Gaulle -

so...even after zilla has pointed out that there have been even more assassination attempts made by the US government you take issue with ONE example. One example...from the internet!! which doesn't prove there was not an assassination attempt on him by US agents anyway. No proof you say! haha, thats why they are generally called COVERT actions.

'zilla was rhetorically giving you the finger.

Thought about staring a new thread, but seeing as this is on topic I'll post it here. Tragic story. oh sorry, there is a cut and paste below...look away if offended!

Not offended - laughing at the nonsense you swallow without question. Is it anti-American? Then sandinista thinks it's true.

Patrice Lumumba: 50 Years Later, Remembering the U.S.-Backed Assassination of Congo’s First Democratically Elected Leader

This week marks the 50th anniversary of the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, the first democratically elected leader of what is now known as the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Lumumba’s pan-Africanism and his vision of a united Congo gained him many enemies. Both Belgium and the United States actively sought to have him killed. The CIA ordered his assassination but could not complete the job. Instead, the United States and Belgium covertly funneled cash and aid to rival politicians who seized power and arrested Lumumba. On January 17, 1961, after being beaten and tortured, Lumumba was shot and killed.

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/1/21/p ... emembering

LOL "democracy now" - with all due respect for that extraordinarily biased source....yet another group that prints anything anti-American.

http://books.google.com/books?id=I8LHU4 ... &q&f=false Note: The evidence shows that the firing squads were commanded by a Belgian, Captain Julien Gat, and another Belgian, Police Commissioner Verscheure, had overall command of the execution site. The Belgian Commission has found that the execution was carried out by Katangan authorities, but written orders from the Belgian government were found requesting Lumumba's murder and documents on various arrangements, such as death squads. It was a Belgian backed assassination.

But, then again, in your world the US is behind everything somehow... it may have been the Belgians, but they were only doing it under American coercion...right?