Gobama! Gobama! Yes! Ease Travel Restrictions to Cuba!

[Hermit]

The issue is that the US can't stand to have a country NOT do as their told by the wanna be world police.

Since 1992, the policy of the US has been that the embargo would remain in place until Cuba made concrete moves toward democratization. And, a key factor here is that Cuba has not done so.

So, in short, you agree with Sandinista?

[Coito ergo sum]

The issue is that the US can't stand to have a country NOT do as their told by the wanna be world police.

Since 1992, the policy of the US has been that the embargo would remain in place until Cuba made concrete moves toward democratization. And, a key factor here is that Cuba has not done so.

So, in short, you agree with Sandinista?

I agree that the embargo should be lifted, yes.

But, I am not sure I follow his logic, based on his positions on other issues, as to why he thinks the embargo should be lifted. I don't know why he, sandinista, would want commerce to be encouraged. He hates private enterprise, and American companies are licking their chops to be able to export to Cuba, and buy products from Cuba.

[Hermit]

The issue is that the US can't stand to have a country NOT do as their told by the wanna be world police.

Since 1992, the policy of the US has been that the embargo would remain in place until Cuba made concrete moves toward democratization. And, a key factor here is that Cuba has not done so.

So, in short, you agree with Sandinista?

I agree that the embargo should be lifted, yes.

But, I am not sure I follow his logic, based on his positions on other issues, as to why he thinks the embargo should be lifted. I don't know why he, sandinista, would want commerce to be encouraged. He hates private enterprise, and American companies are licking their chops to be able to export to Cuba, and buy products from Cuba.

Coito, I merely pointed to Sandinista saying "the US can't stand to have a country not do as they're told", and then asked you that by furnishing an example you agreed with that.

[Coito ergo sum]

The issue is that the US can't stand to have a country NOT do as their told by the wanna be world police.

Since 1992, the policy of the US has been that the embargo would remain in place until Cuba made concrete moves toward democratization. And, a key factor here is that Cuba has not done so.

So, in short, you agree with Sandinista?

I agree that the embargo should be lifted, yes.

But, I am not sure I follow his logic, based on his positions on other issues, as to why he thinks the embargo should be lifted. I don't know why he, sandinista, would want commerce to be encouraged. He hates private enterprise, and American companies are licking their chops to be able to export to Cuba, and buy products from Cuba.

Coito, I merely pointed to Sandinista saying "the US can't stand to have a country not do as they're told", and then asked you that by furnishing an example you agreed with that.

Oh - gotcha - well - here's the thing. Supporting democracy and democratic reforms is not an attempt to force a country to do what we wish them to do. It's supporting the right of Cuba to decide for itself who its leaders should be. Castro is not Cuba and - yes - the US opposes what Castro, an unelected totalitarian dictator who has ruled with an iron fist for 50 years.

I didn't realize that taking economic measures against totalitarian dictators ostensibly to achieve the goal of allowing a people to have the same democratic, parliamentary or republican freedoms to choose their governments that the rest of the "free" world enjoys was akin to " can't stand to have a country NOT do as their told by the wanna be world police." If you think that's the same thing, then good for you...

Again - I oppose the embargo because I think it does not serve the end it is ostensibly there to achieve. I do, however, strongly oppose the "right" of Fidel Castro to forcibly take power and hold it for 50 years, irrespective of the will of the Cuban people, jail people for political reasons, seize private property without just compensation, etc. I simply think that opening up with Cuba, if done properly, is a better way to making Cuba a friend rather than an enemy.

[Dries van Tonder]

I simply think that opening up with Cuba if done properly, is a better way to making Cuba a friend rather than an enemy.

Now that's the spirit

[Coito ergo sum]

I simply think that opening up with Cuba if done properly, is a better way to making Cuba a friend rather than an enemy.

Now that's the spirit

Well, improperly - like if the US opens up, but Cuba does not, making it a one way street with Cuba being allowed to trade here in the US freely, but Americans not being able to trade equally freely in Cuba, would not be the way to go.

[Dries van Tonder]

I simply think that opening up with Cuba if done properly, is a better way to making Cuba a friend rather than an enemy.

Now that's the spirit

Well, improperly - like if the US opens up, but Cuba does not, making it a one way street with Cuba being allowed to trade here in the US freely, but Americans not being able to trade equally freely in Cuba, would not be the way to go.

I've read somewhere that Cuba's so deep into economic trouble that they would just about grab any trade they can get. So I doubt they would prevent US trade in their country. Unless the Cuban politicians fuck everything up.

[Coito ergo sum]

I simply think that opening up with Cuba if done properly, is a better way to making Cuba a friend rather than an enemy.

Now that's the spirit

Well, improperly - like if the US opens up, but Cuba does not, making it a one way street with Cuba being allowed to trade here in the US freely, but Americans not being able to trade equally freely in Cuba, would not be the way to go.

I've read somewhere that Cuba's so deep into economic trouble that they would just about grab any trade they can get. So I doubt they would prevent US trade in their country. Unless the Cuban politicians fuck everything up.

Well, believe me, a double standard on trade with the US is quite common. Canada, for example, has all sorts of protective trade rules - Canadian content percentages and all that. China is notoriously protectionist, well beyond anything the US ever does.

[maiforpeace]

Nibble the hand that feeds you?

[redunderthebed]

Just WTF is the issue that the USA (OK, not all USA'ns) have with Cuba? I've met plenty of Cubans, doctors mostly, who've been here (some for several years). I've even had a Cuban neighbour. And they're nice people.

EDIT: Spelling

Americans don't have any problem with Cubans, whether here or in Cuba. The embargo came about precisely because Americans opposed the totalitarian regime that brought its boot down on the neck of the Cubans and robbed the Cuban people blind. Cuba is a prison - people are not allowed to leave - that's why people had to risk their lives to escape and float on rafts 90 miles to the United States - and the United States welcomed any Cuban that could make it to our shores - Cubans had special immigration status, allowing them to stay.

The embargo, unfortunately, did not work, and does not work. At this point, the Cuban administration would likely crumble apart if the embargo was lifted and private enterprise could operate once again in Cuba.

As opposed to the capitalist US backed one where people were allowed to leave but were too fucking poor to do so.

I simply think that opening up with Cuba if done properly, is a better way to making Cuba a friend rather than an enemy.

Now that's the spirit

Well, improperly - like if the US opens up, but Cuba does not, making it a one way street with Cuba being allowed to trade here in the US freely, but Americans not being able to trade equally freely in Cuba, would not be the way to go.

China has restrictions of trade of which are comparable to cuba. Almost all countries have restrictions on foreign including US of A.

The embargo exists for no other reason than political.

The issue is that the US can't stand to have a country NOT do as their told by the wanna be world police.

That would be a tad juvenile - US foreign policy based on "other countries doing as they're told?"

The reality is, US foreign policy, including that related to Cuba, is more complex than this kind of rhetoric. One, the embargo was imposed because Castro, a brutal dictator, took power in 1959 and shortly thereafter seized the property of American citizens and corporations without compensation. Since 1992, the policy of the US has been that the embargo would remain in place until Cuba made concrete moves toward democratization. And, a key factor here is that Cuba has not done so.

I agree it is juvenile but it has and always will be a key plank of foreign policy of the US. The USA have a long and notorious record of supporting totalitarian dictators of which in Tunisia this week one got overthrown. I have no problem with a government nationalising industries that should belong to the people and that is what essentially Cuba did.

Your last bit of the paragraph just contradicted your opening statement.

[Coito ergo sum]

Just WTF is the issue that the USA (OK, not all USA'ns) have with Cuba? I've met plenty of Cubans, doctors mostly, who've been here (some for several years). I've even had a Cuban neighbour. And they're nice people.

EDIT: Spelling

Americans don't have any problem with Cubans, whether here or in Cuba. The embargo came about precisely because Americans opposed the totalitarian regime that brought its boot down on the neck of the Cubans and robbed the Cuban people blind. Cuba is a prison - people are not allowed to leave - that's why people had to risk their lives to escape and float on rafts 90 miles to the United States - and the United States welcomed any Cuban that could make it to our shores - Cubans had special immigration status, allowing them to stay.

The embargo, unfortunately, did not work, and does not work. At this point, the Cuban administration would likely crumble apart if the embargo was lifted and private enterprise could operate once again in Cuba.

As opposed to the capitalist US backed one where people were allowed to leave but were too fucking poor to do so.

You're claiming the people are better off now? Cuba in the 1920s through the 1950s had a booming economy.

I simply think that opening up with Cuba if done properly, is a better way to making Cuba a friend rather than an enemy.

Now that's the spirit

Well, improperly - like if the US opens up, but Cuba does not, making it a one way street with Cuba being allowed to trade here in the US freely, but Americans not being able to trade equally freely in Cuba, would not be the way to go.

China has restrictions of trade of which are comparable to cuba. Almost all countries have restrictions on foreign including US of A.

China has far more restrictions on US trade to China than the US has on Chinese trade to the US. That's quite typical with US trade relations. It was and is the case with Japan too, and South Korea. That's quite typical. It's been an issue for the last 30 years - American business in the US has to compete against foreign competition with wages undercutting ours, but we also have to endure protectionist tariffs out the wazoo. My point was that the US often has skewed bilateral trade relations, wherein higher burdens are placed on our businesses than are placed on foreign businesses coming to the US. It would be an example of an "improper" way to structure US Cuban relations if the the US is saddled with higher burdens in Cuba than Cuban businesses would have here in the US.

The embargo exists for no other reason than political.

Of course - and part of the politics is that Cuba is totalitarian and it would be better if Cuba was a capitalist democracy, if we can have our druthers.

The issue is that the US can't stand to have a country NOT do as their told by the wanna be world police.

That would be a tad juvenile - US foreign policy based on "other countries doing as they're told?"

The reality is, US foreign policy, including that related to Cuba, is more complex than this kind of rhetoric. One, the embargo was imposed because Castro, a brutal dictator, took power in 1959 and shortly thereafter seized the property of American citizens and corporations without compensation. Since 1992, the policy of the US has been that the embargo would remain in place until Cuba made concrete moves toward democratization. And, a key factor here is that Cuba has not done so.

I agree it is juvenile but it has and always will be a key plank of foreign policy of the US. The USA have a long and notorious record of supporting totalitarian dictators of which in Tunisia this week one got overthrown. I have no problem with a government nationalising industries that should belong to the people and that is what essentially Cuba did.

Your last bit of the paragraph just contradicted your opening statement.

No it doesn't contradict the opening statement. Supporting democracy is supporting the right of a nation to determine for itself what it's government will be. The US opposing totalitarian dictators like Castro is not the US telling other countries what to do. It's telling those totalitarian dictators that they are not legitimate leaders. Nobody "chose" Castro. He took power militarily. To be in favor of democratization is to be in favor of letting Cuba elect its leaders irrespective of what the US wants.

This whole weird idea that countries "choose" totalitarianism, and that it is somehow "imposing" our view of right and wrong on a country by supporting democratization is really quite pervasive these days, though. Like, somehow Castro has a "right" to rule with an iron fist by decree, and put political opponents in jail, and for the US to oppose his regime is to oppose a country not doing what we tell it to do. How this thinking ever became so pervasive ...I'm at a loss.

[sandinista]

wow, lot of hot air in here today

Too much weirdness and hilarity to bother commenting on, only the tip of the iceberg:

coito

You're claiming the people are better off now? Cuba in the 1920s through the 1950s had a booming economy.

Booming economy for who? Yes, the Cuban people are better off now than with the other "dictator" the US supported, that bloodthirsty Batista. Fuck "the economy", and your religion of "the market"...ludicrous, juvenile and naive.

[Coito ergo sum]

Booming economy for who? Yes, the Cuban people are better off now than with the other "dictator" the US supported, that bloodthirsty Batista. Fuck "the economy", and your religion of "the market"...ludicrous, juvenile and naive.

Not a chance you can win on that one. The Cuban people are not at all better off. You'd like to think so, because that's what your philosophy is supposed to do, make the common person better off. The common person in Cuba lives in squalor right now, much worse than in 1955.

[sandinista]

Booming economy for who? Yes, the Cuban people are better off now than with the other "dictator" the US supported, that bloodthirsty Batista. Fuck "the economy", and your religion of "the market"...ludicrous, juvenile and naive.

Not a chance you can win on that one. The Cuban people are not at all better off. You'd like to think so, because that's what your philosophy is supposed to do, make the common person better off. The common person in Cuba lives in squalor right now, much worse than in 1955.

bullshit...and I'd say "you know that", but you don't.

obviously, from your childlike, juvenile posts you've never been to Cuba or talked to any Cubans in Cuba. I have and can say that the people I have spoken too would disagree with you on pretty much all your nonsense.

Couldn't let this one go...for humor sake

coito:

Since 1992, the policy of the US has been that the embargo would remain in place until Cuba made concrete moves toward democratization. And, a key factor here is that Cuba has not done so.

democratization coming from the US..hahahaha. I like that, a two party corporate system telling someone else to " democratize". Classic. Maybe when you finish high school you'll see the problem with that.

[Coito ergo sum]

Booming economy for who? Yes, the Cuban people are better off now than with the other "dictator" the US supported, that bloodthirsty Batista. Fuck "the economy", and your religion of "the market"...ludicrous, juvenile and naive.

Not a chance you can win on that one. The Cuban people are not at all better off. You'd like to think so, because that's what your philosophy is supposed to do, make the common person better off. The common person in Cuba lives in squalor right now, much worse than in 1955.

bullshit...and I'd say "you know that", but you don't.

obviously, from your childlike, juvenile posts you've never been to Cuba or talked to any Cubans in Cuba. I have and can say that the people I have spoken too would disagree with you on pretty much all your nonsense.

I've spoken to people from Cuba, and I can tell you they absolutely, positively agree with me, and would tell you that you've talked to some of the privileged. They would tell you that you are a white foreigner who has been snowed by the regime.

Children lack adequate clothing and food, and families have a hard time meeting their daily needs. People commonly eat only rice and beans, and meat and vegetables are a luxury. Owning a motor vehicle is uncommon. Soap and toothpaste are rationed, as are the rice and beans. The Cuban government limits by law how much fruit and vegetables can be purchased.

Throughout the country, the State puts up billboards reminding people of the revolution and its many "victories" for the nation. LOL - because, you know, things are going so well there, that the revolution has to be advertised....the country, of course, is rife with shortages, breakdowns, blackouts and long lines. Sometimes things like potatoes are not available for months at a time.

Hopefully, when the Castros are finally fucking dead and their corpses tossed in a ditch somewhere where they belong, the plight of the Cuban people can get better. The sooner the embargo is lifted, the better I always say.

And, a final question - if things are so awesome in Cuba right now - why in the world are you so interested in the embargo being lifted? You should want the embargo to stay, so that the corrupting influence of capitalism doesn't get it, right? If the people are happy, healthy and prosperous enough in Cuba right now - what the fuck do you care if the embargo is lifted?