Do 'I' actually exist?

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charlou
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by charlou » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:01 am

FBM wrote:
Charlou wrote:
FBM wrote:
Charlou wrote:...You are being more precise in your understanding and definition of existence, that's all.
Yeah, when it comes to this sort of thing, I can be way too nit-picky over using language precisely. Sorry. It's just that when I write papers for philosophy classes, if I don't do that the prof rips my paper apart.
I think it's important actually. How will other people come to understand something if those of who have knowledge, thoughts and ideas to impart aren't precise in detail and description of it? :cheers:
:cheers:

I would do well to remember that Ratz isn't a grad school class, tho, and stop being so niggling over things... :shifty:
Please don't stop .. I like discussing this with you and looking at your pov. The details are part of that, both yours and mine. :tup:
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by charlou » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:04 am

Time to get on with other things ... enjoy the film, FBM.
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by FBM » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:30 am

Thanks, Charlou! I also enjoy getting a look at things from your perspective. I hope we both benefit. The...movie...is...down...loading...so...slow..........ly.... :yawn: Only one seed...
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by JimC » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:06 am

Our perception of entities, and the words we use to describe them, are at the same time very interesting, and a source of possible confusion. We use similar terminology to describe things that are relatively unchanging material objects, entities one could say, (that chair, that rock), and things like rivers or clouds that are entity-like from one perspective, and yet are ever-changing at a different level. We also jump easily between the partcular (the Yarra River) and the general (rivers as a category)

This habit makes it perfectly reasonable, in one sense, to use an entity-suitable word such as "self" for something that, when looked at more closely, is a dynamic series of linked processes, changing in a fluid way through time. The difficulty comes when we unconsciously assign identical properties to these different classes of entities that we blithely lump together by tagging them with the same symbol. This means that the concept of a self, an ego, a soul, can be too easily linked in our thoughts with much less dynamic entities, and assigned a permanency which is misleading.
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by charlou » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:14 am

Yes, that's very true Jim, and concisely put.

FBM wrote:Edit: I should be more precise, since this is such a tricky topic: The perception of self does happen, and it exists (fleetingly) as it's happening. But to say the perception of self exists is to make a abstract singular noun sound like a true entity.
Was just rereading and must add that I agree with this FBM ... A key word here is 'sound', which I didn't quite catch on first reading ..

The way we use language often tends to a dichotomy or contradiction of meaning, and there does seem to be a tendency for people to view existence, body, self, emotions, etc, based on simplistic or superficial, unexplored assumptions. Take anthropomorphism ... Even scientists still use terminology that harks back to it, and must make an effort to clarify it's use wherever possible. An example is Richard Dawkins' use of the word 'selfish' in his book The Selfish Gene, where he made a point of explaining in detail the difference of usage, between everyday understanding and the context of the scientific hypothesis in which he was using it. Even then, he was still misunderstood by many readers.

Oh, yes, details are important indeed.
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by charlou » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:34 am

Still rereading ...
Charlou wrote:
FBM wrote:I agree that both the subjective and objective (as if there were such a thing) perspectives should be accounted for, though. In Buddhism, the concept of anatta is from a subjective perspective. As the book I linked to explains, for the Buddha there was no objective perspective. What is is what's experienced or capable of being experienced. What the Buddha is described as having done is approach the question from the subjective perspective, analyze the human experience and come up empty, wrt anything that endures throughout one's lifetime that is identical (strict definition) to that which came out of one's mother.
Ever considered stepping outside your chosen path to wisdom to listen to the thoughts of people who aren't quoting published philosophy and dogmas?
I was dismissive here .. Sorry. For one thing, Rum raised the Buddhist perspective in the OP .. and for another, on rereading, I can see the Buddhist thinking you have presented in the quoted post is entirely congruent with and applicable to what we've been talking about.
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by FBM » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:08 am

JimC, I agree with Charlou: very well put. :tup:

Charlou, I have to admit that you shocked me a bit with that. Even so, I still need to figure out how to express my ideas more clearly. If I could write worth a poot, I'd be able to communicate meaning instead of getting hung up on vocabulary and such. I'm working on it!
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by Ronja » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:02 am

My hubby just took a look at this thread (page 4) and suddenly I found myself without my laptop for a while. ;) After he surfaced again, he called this "a very good thread" and especially liked Jim's last comment (on rivers, rocks etc). I very much agree with him.
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by JimC » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:27 am

I have thought a little more on the ideas I was stumbling around before. At an abstract level, the labelling issue makes some sense, and allows both a vindication of the everyday use of "self as entity", along with a hint that such a signifier can cause difficulties in our view of ouselves.

However, I return to an evolutionary perspective, and a conviction that all of us have a strongly experiential sense of a self as an active, controlling agent. In this sense, we feel unified (most of the time), and as the "chooser" of actions; it is this which fosters the powerful but illusory intuition of free will...

I would contend that this internal stance is a construct; an analogy within the flow of consciousness might be something like a standing wave that one sees in a white water rapid. It is a construct which works pragmatically well in most everyday situations, particularly those that have survival imperatives. No surprise that I see the origins of this construct in evolutionary terms... Real in one sense, illusory from a different perspective...

It may well be that the deeper realms of our language actually reflect this. The way we assign symbols to objects and categories is not arbitrary, but reflects deeper structures...

It seems to me that there are times where this construct of self gets in the way of our own mental well-being, particularly when we cling to it strongly. I have a sense that some of the tenets of buddhism reflect this; clinging to the construct is something that may cause us suffering, and perhaps can be altered, and we are not inevitably locked into a stance of a permanent self, never allowing itself to let go...
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by charlou » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:35 am

Elegantly put, Jim ..

JimC wrote: I have a sense that some of the tenets of buddhism reflect this; clinging to the construct is something that may cause us suffering, and perhaps can be altered, and we are not inevitably locked into a stance of a permanent self, never allowing itself to let go...
Is that how you find Buddhism ... or the pertinent aspects of it ... FBM?
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by FBM » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:52 am

JimC wrote:...It seems to me that there are times where this construct of self gets in the way of our own mental well-being, particularly when we cling to it strongly. I have a sense that some of the tenets of buddhism reflect this; clinging to the construct is something that may cause us suffering, and perhaps can be altered, and we are not inevitably locked into a stance of a permanent self, never allowing itself to let go...
I think so, too. In the past, when I subscribed to the conventional view of selfhood, I identified myself (to myself and others) with sentences such as, "I'm the kind of person who...", "I'm not the kind of person who...", "I've always been like...", "I've never been one to...", etc. In other words, statements based on an assumption that "I" was some sort of immutable entity/identity residing in this ever-changing body from birth to death. Not until I started studying Buddhist philosophy did I start to question this and investigate it further. Naturally, I studied not only Buddhist philosophy, but also areas of science that were related to it. I found that the two were compatible, to say the least.

Anyway, once I let go of my assumption of being an immutable entity/identity, I found a tremendous release from the strictures I'd placed on myself and am now more open to change and adaptation to the environment than ever. (I'm even willing to dress in bib overalls and a tiara upon request. :D ) There's no healthy way, as far as I know, to permanently shake the first-person perspective, and that's not my goal. If nothing else, communication would be practically impossible without it (consider how many times the dubious word "I" appears in this post, for example). But I'm still working on further releasing myself from those strictures mentioned above, whether they come from within or without. Still got a lot of work to do, but it's a worthwhile experiment for me.

Edit: Charlou, I read your post after posting this one. Yes, I think this is a huge portion of what Buddhism as depicted in the Pali Canon is about. Theravada Buddhism, anyway. Mahayana stuff is full of mysticism and woo.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by Rum » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:00 am

FBM wrote:
JimC wrote:...It seems to me that there are times where this construct of self gets in the way of our own mental well-being, particularly when we cling to it strongly. I have a sense that some of the tenets of buddhism reflect this; clinging to the construct is something that may cause us suffering, and perhaps can be altered, and we are not inevitably locked into a stance of a permanent self, never allowing itself to let go...
I think so, too. In the past, when I subscribed to the conventional view of selfhood, I identified myself (to myself and others) with sentences such as, "I'm the kind of person who...", "I'm not the kind of person who...", "I've always been like...", "I've never been one to...", etc. In other words, statements based on an assumption that "I" was some sort of immutable entity/identity residing in this ever-changing body from birth to death. Not until I started studying Buddhist philosophy did I start to question this and investigate it further. Naturally, I studied not only Buddhist philosophy, but also areas of science that were related to it. I found that the two were compatible, to say the least.

Anyway, once I let go of my assumption of being an immutable entity/identity, I found a tremendous release from the strictures I'd placed on myself and am now more open to change and adaptation to the environment than ever. (I'm even willing to dress in bib overalls and a tiara upon request. :D ) There's no healthy way, as far as I know, to permanently shake the first-person perspective, and that's not my goal. If nothing else, communication would be practically impossible without it (consider how many times the dubious word "I" appears in this post, for example). But I'm still working on further releasing myself from those strictures mentioned above, whether they come from within or without. Still got a lot of work to do, but it's a worthwhile experiment for me.

Edit: Charlou, I read your post after posting this one. Yes, I think this is a huge portion of what Buddhism as depicted in the Pali Canon is about. Theravada Buddhism, anyway. Mahayana stuff is full of mysticism and woo.
I seem to have taken a similar road. For something like 15 years if asked I would have told people I considered myself a Buddhist. I did practice some meditation, joined a number of Buddhist organisations and even visited the Tibetan Buddhist centre in Scotland. It has certainly left me with the same sense of a 'lack of singularity' you speak about. I also believe that the self discipline of some serious Buddhists can achieve mental states which bring peace to them. I do not however believe in any way that these are transcendent or in any way supernatural however or that it makes any difference at the end of the day.

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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by FBM » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:09 am

Rum wrote:...I also believe that the self discipline of some serious Buddhists can achieve mental states which bring peace to them. I do not however believe in any way that these are transcendent or in any way supernatural however or that it makes any difference at the end of the day.
:tup: You nailed it, man.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by Rum » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:15 pm

Stumbled upon this earlier today. Adds an interesting element to the thread.


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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by charlou » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:53 am

FBM wrote:
FBM wrote:Charlou, do you have any more info about the French movie? Year of production, director, genre or something? I'm having a hard time finding it...
imdb: Genesis

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Found it! It'll be a slow download, but it looks like it'll be worth the wait. Cheers!
Hi FBM, how'd that go?
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