"No Refusal" Checkpoints - good, bad, or ugly?

[Coito ergo sum]

Sidenote - Interesting stuff I didn't know about DUI laws in California - it's not an issue in our household since we don't drink and drive.

A California DUI arrest triggers two separate cases - one in court and another at the California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). The criminal case typically involves two different counts. The first, under California Penal Code section 23152(a), is driving under the influence of alcohol, which is commonly known as the "a" count. The second offense, under California Penal Code section 23152(b), is a related charge of driving with a blood alcohol content (BAC) of .08 percent or greater - the "b" count. The second charge is the one that triggers the California Department of Motor Vehicles DUI case, where the California DMV will attempt to suspend the motorist's driving privileges.

>snip<

.... establish that the police had probable cause to arrest the driver, whether the arrest was lawful, and whether the driver had a BAC of .08 percent or greater in violation of California law. If the driver is accused of refusing a chemical test, the hearing officer will seek to establish whether the driver was properly advised of the consequences of refusing the test, and whether he or she continued to refuse after receiving that warning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunk_driv ... by_country

And, checkpoints have been established as being lawful, in California.

So, since checkpoints are lawful in Florida...CES, you should seek to get this overturned in Florida, eh? Probably more useful than arguing with us about it.

I was discussing it - and interested in others' opinions. I've not argued that it's illegal, at present, in Florida. Somebody who gets in a mess by virtue of this process ought to challenge it. Hopefully, IMO, the courts will view it in the more rational manner of the Michigan Supreme Court, which found it unconstitutional under the Michigan constitution.

Whether one does or does not drink and drive (neither do I) is not the issue. I don't commit crimes in general, yet I'm still interested in the police authority to search and seize. While on the surface these rights seem to protect only the guilty, they more importantly protect all citizens.

[Feck]

For all those that think you are losing your Freedumb by accepting the Police right to breathalize you on a whim ,Look on the bright side it might only be a single Mum you kill , it could only be a few children you orphan (or you could really fuck up and hit my car and hurt my Dawg ).
When a Police man Stops you and asks for a few moments and one long Breath just on the off -chance that you have a significant amount of alcohol in your blood stream Then you comply without becoming an amateur constitutional lawyer ,without giving the cop a hard time and fucking cheerfully . That cop is not out busting people for kicks he (or she ) is trying to save the lives of you and others ! They are the first on the scene of accidents you want to know why they don't think much of your Freedumb and you Liberties ? ASK ONE !

And what happens when that oh so reliable piece of technology accumulates enough residual alcohol on it to trigger that you're drunk? You go to prison willingly because the police have the right to use fucking terrible pieces of technology?

You have fun in the jail cell, I'm refusing the test. Let them get a court order without probable cause and take a blood sample. I will laugh at them and see them in court.

You are not convicted on the evidence of a road side blood-test you are arrested on suspicion , You are convicted on further evidence, like blood or urine tests !

'The machine was wrong it was saturated from the previous drunk' sounds like an excuses you hear on Jerry Springer when people fail a Lie detector or a paternity test FFS .

[JimC]

Failing to supply a breath test is an offence in the UK with just about the exact same penalties as being over the limit .

There is no civil liberties case to answer FFS . Drink driving is not a misdemeanour !

Like ani, perhaps it would be better to make sure that refusal to take a breath test has the same, immediate penalty as the most severe form of being over the limit, no appeal, immediate consequences (including not being able to drive your car home, with all the inconvenience that entails).

[Feck]

Failing to supply a breath test is an offence in the UK with just about the exact same penalties as being over the limit .

There is no civil liberties case to answer FFS . Drink driving is not a misdemeanour !

Like ani, perhaps it would be better to make sure that refusal to take a breath test has the same, immediate penalty as the most severe form of being over the limit, no appeal, immediate consequences (including not being able to drive your car home, with all the inconvenience that entails).

That is what happens

[Xamonas Chegwé]

They are introducing this policy because there are lawyers encouraging drunk drivers to exploit a loophole in the law and hence endanger the lives of other road-users with impunity.

Fuck the civil rights of those cunts, I say. I drink all the time but I never get into my car when I am over the limit. Anyone that does deserves to be pincushioned and to have the law thrown straight at them. Fuckers.

[GreyICE]

For all those that think you are losing your Freedumb by accepting the Police right to breathalize you on a whim ,Look on the bright side it might only be a single Mum you kill , it could only be a few children you orphan (or you could really fuck up and hit my car and hurt my Dawg ).
When a Police man Stops you and asks for a few moments and one long Breath just on the off -chance that you have a significant amount of alcohol in your blood stream Then you comply without becoming an amateur constitutional lawyer ,without giving the cop a hard time and fucking cheerfully . That cop is not out busting people for kicks he (or she ) is trying to save the lives of you and others ! They are the first on the scene of accidents you want to know why they don't think much of your Freedumb and you Liberties ? ASK ONE !

And what happens when that oh so reliable piece of technology accumulates enough residual alcohol on it to trigger that you're drunk? You go to prison willingly because the police have the right to use fucking terrible pieces of technology?

You have fun in the jail cell, I'm refusing the test. Let them get a court order without probable cause and take a blood sample. I will laugh at them and see them in court.

Assuming your blood alcohol is under 0.08%.

If I'm driving, my blood alcohol is under 0.08%. If I'm tested by a roadside breathalyzer, my measured BAC could be anything. No way in hell am I letting that thing near me. I could have used mouthwash before I left and be above the legal level. Hell, I could be above the lethal level!

Blood tests? They're reliable. And if you decide to take my blood with no probable cause whatsoever, I will see you in court.

[maiforpeace]

For all those that think you are losing your Freedumb by accepting the Police right to breathalize you on a whim ,Look on the bright side it might only be a single Mum you kill , it could only be a few children you orphan (or you could really fuck up and hit my car and hurt my Dawg ).
When a Police man Stops you and asks for a few moments and one long Breath just on the off -chance that you have a significant amount of alcohol in your blood stream Then you comply without becoming an amateur constitutional lawyer ,without giving the cop a hard time and fucking cheerfully . That cop is not out busting people for kicks he (or she ) is trying to save the lives of you and others ! They are the first on the scene of accidents you want to know why they don't think much of your Freedumb and you Liberties ? ASK ONE !

And what happens when that oh so reliable piece of technology accumulates enough residual alcohol on it to trigger that you're drunk? You go to prison willingly because the police have the right to use fucking terrible pieces of technology?

You have fun in the jail cell, I'm refusing the test. Let them get a court order without probable cause and take a blood sample. I will laugh at them and see them in court.

Assuming your blood alcohol is under 0.08%.

If I'm driving, my blood alcohol is under 0.08%. If I'm tested by a roadside breathalyzer, my measured BAC could be anything. No way in hell am I letting that thing near me.

Failing the breathalyzer doesn't automatically mean you get a DUI - they will still perform sobriety tests, and ultimately the blood test, so refusing the breathalyzer just seems dumb. You have a good chance of passing it, and, if you don't, you can vindicate yourself with the other tests. On the other hand if you refuse the breathalyzer they are going to haul your ass in anyway.

Why test it, just to prove a point? In the meantime, the rest of your evening or day will be ruined, regardless, and good luck in a civil suit for false arrest.

[JimC]

For all those that think you are losing your Freedumb by accepting the Police right to breathalize you on a whim ,Look on the bright side it might only be a single Mum you kill , it could only be a few children you orphan (or you could really fuck up and hit my car and hurt my Dawg ).
When a Police man Stops you and asks for a few moments and one long Breath just on the off -chance that you have a significant amount of alcohol in your blood stream Then you comply without becoming an amateur constitutional lawyer ,without giving the cop a hard time and fucking cheerfully . That cop is not out busting people for kicks he (or she ) is trying to save the lives of you and others ! They are the first on the scene of accidents you want to know why they don't think much of your Freedumb and you Liberties ? ASK ONE !

And what happens when that oh so reliable piece of technology accumulates enough residual alcohol on it to trigger that you're drunk? You go to prison willingly because the police have the right to use fucking terrible pieces of technology?

You have fun in the jail cell, I'm refusing the test. Let them get a court order without probable cause and take a blood sample. I will laugh at them and see them in court.

Assuming your blood alcohol is under 0.08%.

If I'm driving, my blood alcohol is under 0.08%. If I'm tested by a roadside breathalyzer, my measured BAC could be anything. No way in hell am I letting that thing near me.

Failing the breathalyzer doesn't automatically mean you get a DUI - they will still perform sobriety tests, and ultimately the blood test, so refusing the breathalyzer just seems dumb. You have a good chance of passing it, and, if you don't, you can vindicate yourself with the other tests. On the other hand if you refuse the breathalyzer they are going to haul your ass in anyway.

Why test it, just to prove a point? In the meantime, the rest of your evening or day will be ruined, regardless, and good luck in a civil suit for false arrest.

[GreyICE]

Failing the breathalyzer doesn't automatically mean you get a DUI - they will still perform sobriety tests, and ultimately the blood test, so refusing the breathalyzer just seems dumb. You have a good chance of passing it, and, if you don't, you can vindicate yourself with the other tests. On the other hand if you refuse the breathalyzer they are going to haul your ass in anyway.

Why test it, just to prove a point? In the meantime, the rest of your evening or day will be ruined, regardless, and good luck in a civil suit for false arrest.

There was a time when the word "principles" meant something. If I'm weaving all over the road, sure, breathalyze away. There's reason to believe I'm drunk.

Me being in the car is not good grounds to believe I'm drunk. No matter what day of the year it is. Whyever would I submit to that sort of a test under those circumstances, especially when its so likely to be wrong and used against me (and they really are)? Book me! Take me down to the station! Explain to the judge that your probable cause was that I was in the driver's seat of an automobile!

You have an evening. I can look in the mirror without flinching. I'd trade one for the other.

[Coito ergo sum]

They are introducing this policy because there are lawyers encouraging drunk drivers to exploit a loophole in the law and hence endanger the lives of other road-users with impunity.

Fuck the civil rights of those cunts, I say. I drink all the time but I never get into my car when I am over the limit. Anyone that does deserves to be pincushioned and to have the law thrown straight at them. Fuckers.

There is also the civil rights of non-drinkers who are detained and searched for no reason...fuck them too, ay?

And, it is true that the breathalyzer is not always accurate, nor do the cops consistently follow proper procedures in using it in all cases. So, just because you blow .08 doesn't mean you are .08. So, if a person has one or two drinks, and gets pulled over, it's not necessarily a bad move to not want to blow into it. If you do, an it shows .08 when you're not, you're going to have fuckload of a time demonstrating that you weren't .08.

Of course, if you do refuse to blow into a breathalyzer, the cop is generally going to arrest you and stick you in the clink that night. You'll likely get a suspended license for 1 year, and have to fight to get your driving privilege back. So, it's no picnic either way.

[maiforpeace]

Hey, they're your principles, by all means stick to them.

[Tigger]

Failing the breathalyzer doesn't automatically mean you get a DUI - they will still perform sobriety tests, and ultimately the blood test, so refusing the breathalyzer just seems dumb. You have a good chance of passing it, and, if you don't, you can vindicate yourself with the other tests. On the other hand if you refuse the breathalyzer they are going to haul your ass in anyway.

Why test it, just to prove a point? In the meantime, the rest of your evening or day will be ruined, regardless, and good luck in a civil suit for false arrest.

There was a time when the word "principles" meant something. If I'm weaving all over the road, sure, breathalyze away. There's reason to believe I'm drunk.

Me being in the car is not good grounds to believe I'm drunk. No matter what day of the year it is. Whyever would I submit to that sort of a test under those circumstances, especially when its so likely to be wrong and used against me (and they really are)? Book me! Take me down to the station! Explain to the judge that your probable cause was that I was in the driver's seat of an automobile!

You have an evening. I can look in the mirror without flinching. I'd trade one for the other.

You don't need to be weaving all over the road to be a shit driver because of drink, so what's wrong with a pre-emptive strike? Sometimes the first clue is the little kid that ends up under the wheels that indicates the driver wasn't at his best. Fuck civil liberties and the excuses that the technology doesn't work. If you drive, you permanently have the responsibility of showing at any time that you are competent so to do.

[Animavore]

Failing the breathalyzer doesn't automatically mean you get a DUI - they will still perform sobriety tests, and ultimately the blood test, so refusing the breathalyzer just seems dumb. You have a good chance of passing it, and, if you don't, you can vindicate yourself with the other tests. On the other hand if you refuse the breathalyzer they are going to haul your ass in anyway.

Why test it, just to prove a point? In the meantime, the rest of your evening or day will be ruined, regardless, and good luck in a civil suit for false arrest.

There was a time when the word "principles" meant something. If I'm weaving all over the road, sure, breathalyze away. There's reason to believe I'm drunk.

Me being in the car is not good grounds to believe I'm drunk. No matter what day of the year it is. Whyever would I submit to that sort of a test under those circumstances, especially when its so likely to be wrong and used against me (and they really are)? Book me! Take me down to the station! Explain to the judge that your probable cause was that I was in the driver's seat of an automobile!

You have an evening. I can look in the mirror without flinching. I'd trade one for the other.

Except you don't have to be weaving all over the road to be drunk.

Fuck me you Americans make a big fuss over nothing. These checkpoints, it seems to me, are for everyone. It would be different if they came up behind you and flashed their lights (and even then...). It takes a couple of seconds to blow into a stupid machine but refusing could take all night - and all for what? So you can say, "I showed them"?
And the likelihood of it being wrong is fuck all, by the way.

[Coito ergo sum]

For all those that think you are losing your Freedumb by accepting the Police right to breathalize you on a whim ,Look on the bright side it might only be a single Mum you kill , it could only be a few children you orphan (or you could really fuck up and hit my car and hurt my Dawg ).
When a Police man Stops you and asks for a few moments and one long Breath just on the off -chance that you have a significant amount of alcohol in your blood stream Then you comply without becoming an amateur constitutional lawyer ,without giving the cop a hard time and fucking cheerfully . That cop is not out busting people for kicks he (or she ) is trying to save the lives of you and others ! They are the first on the scene of accidents you want to know why they don't think much of your Freedumb and you Liberties ? ASK ONE !

And what happens when that oh so reliable piece of technology accumulates enough residual alcohol on it to trigger that you're drunk? You go to prison willingly because the police have the right to use fucking terrible pieces of technology?

You have fun in the jail cell, I'm refusing the test. Let them get a court order without probable cause and take a blood sample. I will laugh at them and see them in court.

Assuming your blood alcohol is under 0.08%.

If I'm driving, my blood alcohol is under 0.08%. If I'm tested by a roadside breathalyzer, my measured BAC could be anything. No way in hell am I letting that thing near me.

Failing the breathalyzer doesn't automatically mean you get a DUI - they will still perform sobriety tests, and ultimately the blood test, so refusing the breathalyzer just seems dumb. You have a good chance of passing it, and, if you don't, you can vindicate yourself with the other tests. On the other hand if you refuse the breathalyzer they are going to haul your ass in anyway.

Why test it, just to prove a point? In the meantime, the rest of your evening or day will be ruined, regardless, and good luck in a civil suit for false arrest.

There is a critical difference in whether a cop has pulled you over because he had reasonable suspicion you were doing something wrong:

This:

(1) Getting pulled over by the police for a reason particular to you, having the cop suspect you are drinking, having the cop conduct field sobriety tests and then based on that ask you to take a breahtalyzer....

And, this:

(2) Pulling over everyone, the innocent with the guilty, in what amounts to a dragnet and making everyone take a test whether there is any reason or not.

That's really the issue, as I see it anyway.

[Coito ergo sum]

Failing the breathalyzer doesn't automatically mean you get a DUI - they will still perform sobriety tests, and ultimately the blood test, so refusing the breathalyzer just seems dumb. You have a good chance of passing it, and, if you don't, you can vindicate yourself with the other tests. On the other hand if you refuse the breathalyzer they are going to haul your ass in anyway.

Why test it, just to prove a point? In the meantime, the rest of your evening or day will be ruined, regardless, and good luck in a civil suit for false arrest.

There was a time when the word "principles" meant something. If I'm weaving all over the road, sure, breathalyze away. There's reason to believe I'm drunk.

Me being in the car is not good grounds to believe I'm drunk. No matter what day of the year it is. Whyever would I submit to that sort of a test under those circumstances, especially when its so likely to be wrong and used against me (and they really are)? Book me! Take me down to the station! Explain to the judge that your probable cause was that I was in the driver's seat of an automobile!

You have an evening. I can look in the mirror without flinching. I'd trade one for the other.

Except you don't have to be weaving all over the road to be drunk.

Fuck me you Americans make a big fuss over nothing. These checkpoints, it seems to me, are for everyone. It would be different if they came up behind you and flashed their lights (and even then...). It takes a couple of seconds to blow into a stupid machine but refusing could take all night - and all for what? So you can say, "I showed them"?
And the likelihood of it being wrong is fuck all, by the way.

It's not about "nothing." Whether the police can detain you and search you for no reason is not "nothing." These things have repercussions, and they set precedents. This is about State power and individual liberty, certainly something worth discussing. And, it's not something that merits hand-waving away, calling it "Americans making a big fuss over nothing."