Do 'I' actually exist?

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Trolldor
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by Trolldor » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:32 am

Our consciousness rose with the development of our brains. A more powerful and effective brain granted a more 'powerful and effective' consciousness.

But, our 'consciousness' is fundamental to how we, as human beings, operate. Without a reasonably functioning brain we tend to die.
Unless 'fundamental entity' changes the definition of what both words actually mean.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by Trolldor » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:34 am

I exist objectively. I can be measured, the impact I exhert on my surrounding environment can be assessed.

I can state that with anabsolute confidence and certainty because there is no contrary evidence anywhere to suggest otherwise.

If we're talking about the 'constant' idea, continuity, that too is real. Irrespective of whether I die each night and a new 'me' is born each morning, the information and personality is retained. That is continuity.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by FBM » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:34 am

Robert_S wrote:It's complicated. The truth or falsehood depends on what you mean by "I" and what you mean by "exist".
Agreed. I don't think the conventional, vernacular meanings assigned to either of those words match what can actually be observed. Seems the first person perspective (a 'sense of self' produced in certain regions of the brain) and language work together to pull the wool over our eyes in this case.
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by Robert_S » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:19 am

FBM wrote:
Robert_S wrote:It's complicated. The truth or falsehood depends on what you mean by "I" and what you mean by "exist".
Agreed. I don't think the conventional, vernacular meanings assigned to either of those words match what can actually be observed. Seems the first person perspective (a 'sense of self' produced in certain regions of the brain) and language work together to pull the wool over our eyes in this case.
My sense of self is, in some sense, be an illusion of my brain. But there are not many complaints about it coming from inside this skin.

Two of the best things, IMO, that Dennet ever said were “If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything.” and "If you make yourself big enough you can internalize everything."

Another one is "The Self is a center of narrative gravity." I'm not sure he came up with that bit, but that is what we seem to mean when we say "I" or "we".
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by FBM » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:06 am

Robert_S wrote:
FBM wrote:
Robert_S wrote:It's complicated. The truth or falsehood depends on what you mean by "I" and what you mean by "exist".
Agreed. I don't think the conventional, vernacular meanings assigned to either of those words match what can actually be observed. Seems the first person perspective (a 'sense of self' produced in certain regions of the brain) and language work together to pull the wool over our eyes in this case.
My sense of self is, in some sense, be an illusion of my brain. But there are not many complaints about it coming from inside this skin.

Two of the best things, IMO, that Dennet ever said were “If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything.” and "If you make yourself big enough you can internalize everything."

Another one is "The Self is a center of narrative gravity." I'm not sure he came up with that bit, but that is what we seem to mean when we say "I" or "we".
As far as I know, the sense of self is generated as a part of the proprioceptive function. It aids survival, but that doesn't mean that it actually refers to anything in particular. It's a 'sense' of something. Just as our other senses filter out most of their respective specta in order to make the most sense out of sensory input, this 'sense of self' ignores a great deal of what we can witness.

In my experience, what people mean by 'I' or 'self' is some special entity that comes into creation at birth and resides in the body throughout the lifetime. From the conventional perspective, it's a sort of ghost in the machine, or assumption of a fixed identity that prevails throughout a lifetime. Problem is, we can't find anything that fits that description.

I've heard it said that all the matter in one's body has been completely replaced after 7 years, so the specific matter that comprises the body can't be the 'I'. Sensations, thoughts, memories, etc, change much much faster than the physical matter. In the case of thoughts or consciousness, it's different from split moment to split moment. I can't find anything that persists throughout a single lifetime, nor a single thing within the body at any point in time that I can point to and say, 'This is my self'.

We're composite processes, I think. Not beings. Of course, we use nouns as convenient designators, but that's just linguistic convenience.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by charlou » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:14 am

FBM wrote:I can't find anything that persists throughout a single lifetime
Memory. Without it we'd be fucked.
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by Robert_S » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:21 am

Charlou wrote:
FBM wrote:I can't find anything that persists throughout a single lifetime
Memory. Without it we'd be fucked.
How far back do we remember? How accurately?

I think we're kinda fucked.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange

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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by charlou » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:28 am

At minimum, we learn and remember what is sufficient for survival in the context of our environment, building on that throughout our lives until our brain starts to deteriorate or becomes injured in some way.

And yes, I'm aware that memory too is a property of a fluid biological process. Is healthy replication the key?
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by Rum » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:40 am

I would suggest it isn't about a 'key' to anything. The sense of an irreducible self is temporary and illusory and I would suggest and evolutionary survival mechanism, as memory probably is to some extent. When you are dead the being that you were doesn't need either any more!

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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by charlou » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:46 am

Is healthy replication* at a biological level the key to our ability to learn and remember, to apply that to self and circumstance, to survive in our given environment?


*healthy replication ... meaning even though the biological hardware is constantly in reparation mode, while it's healthy/accurately replicated there's a successful ongoing information flow.
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by JimC » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:57 am

FBM wrote:I'm not sure how something can at once be both an emergent property and a fundamental entity.
It is a question that I find fascinating, and, like Ronja, I lean towards the Dennet and Pinker view of the self. It is not a monolithic, soul-like entity, but a by-product of the sort of consciousness that evolved in big-brained hominids that need a theory of mind. There is a totally and utterly real and materialistic swirl of neural processes at many levels (with vital feedback from the body). The personal standpoint, the "I" is a useful illusion creating itself constantly from the heart of the neural vortex, seamlessly formed and compelling in its siren call of self. It seems reasonable to me that having a consciousness acting this way is a survival mechanism, promoted during homind evolution, for at least 2 critical reasons.

Firstly, it allows clear, straightforward action to occur. If the cognitive system is in some ways a competing set of modules as many suggest, even an illusory steersman is needed to act decisively...

Secondly, it makes easier a "theory of mind". If we act as if all the others in our group are not utterly "other', but themselves have an (illusory) self "at the helm", then predicting others actions becomes that much easier. From this, perhaps, flows much, including empathy and what can be formalised as "the Golden Rule"
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by charlou » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:01 am

Memory ... is not just cognizant ... it works at a cellular level ...
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by Rum » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:02 am

I have, admittedly with little knowledge of the medical issues, sometimes wondered if autism might the failure of this mechanism to fully develop.

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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by JimC » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:09 am

Rum wrote:I have, admittedly with little knowledge of the medical issues, sometimes wondered if autism might the failure of this mechanism to fully develop.
I have heard similar suggestions in various New Scientist articles; another link between a "self created" illusory self, and a theory of mind, the stance of viewing others as if they have a similar little self to yours "at the controls"

Sometimes this illusory self is viewed rather too sneering by mystics; it might be salutary to recognise its illusory nature at the heart, but it is damned useful in a pragmatic sense...
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?

Post by Ronja » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:11 am

Oh how I wish I did not have a (slight) fever! I really like reading this thread, but my brain just won't serve to comment in a coherent enough manner now. Maybe later, or tomorrow...
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