Please - before replying in any automatic knee-jerk fashion, do reflect for at least a few seconds.
If 'I' think a thought and try to identify the 'I' that thought the thought I cannot do so. The thought exists it seems to me, however I can't identify the thing, object or entity that 'had' that thought.
Most people of course, without blinking, would assume that the thing that experiences thoughts, sensations, happenings, phenomena in general is the 'I' that I am talking about - some central thing that is fundamentally and irreducibly 'me/'I''.
I don't think it exists. Do you?
This is Buddhist stuff, but I think it is also atheist stuff.
Do 'I' actually exist?
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Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
No.
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Ronja
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
Read the book. The answer to your question is mostly there. Short and simple (if and only if I understood Dennett properly and remember the core of his argument correctly after about 7 years): "I" does not "exists", it is (re)constructed and (re)interpreted all the time. However, our brains are very, very good at creating illusions of permanence, for all kinds of things, including personal identity and life story. Our illusions of permanence seem to be a good evolutionary trick somehow (people who seriously lack them are called acutely psychotic and/or schizophrenic).
Warning: this book took me two years to work through, and I was really trying. Some of Dennett's stuff was just so mind-blowing for me at the time that quite a few times I had to think about one paragraph for two weeks before I could continue.
http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Exp ... 316180661/
Warning: this book took me two years to work through, and I was really trying. Some of Dennett's stuff was just so mind-blowing for me at the time that quite a few times I had to think about one paragraph for two weeks before I could continue.
http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Exp ... 316180661/
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Rum
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
Thanks Ronja..though I have to admit the OP is a bit of a stimulation for discussion rather than anything else. I was into Buddhism for a number of years and reached this conclusion then. What one does with such a conclusion is another matter. Buddhism suggests 'transcendence' ands methods of achieving it. Atheism suggests there is nothing to transcend. Intellectualism - well it tends to lead to mental wanking, so that probably leaves us with the last option - the absurd option.
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Ronja
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
Why does one have to "do" anything with that conclusion?Rum wrote:... What one does with such a conclusion is another matter. Buddhism suggests 'transcendence' ands methods of achieving it. Atheism suggests there is nothing to transcend. Intellectualism - well it tends to lead to mental wanking, so that probably leaves us with the last option - the absurd option.
Edit: Sorry Rum
- after reading "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" and listening to Hitchens (and Dawkins) a lot I apparently am becoming a killer of philosophical discussions... 
Last edited by Ronja on Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J
"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can . And then when they come back, they can again." - Tigger
"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can
. And then when they come back, they can again." - Tigger-
PsychoSerenity
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Xamonas Chegwé
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
I see Dennett has already been mentioned. I would also recommend his book, "Kinds of Minds".
A book is a version of the world. If you do not like it, ignore it; or offer your own version in return.
Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
House MD
Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
Sandy Denny
This is the wrong forum for bluffing
Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
Twoflower
Bella squats momentarily then waddles on still peeing, like a horse
Millefleur
Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
House MD
Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
Sandy Denny
This is the wrong forum for bluffing
Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
Twoflower
Bella squats momentarily then waddles on still peeing, like a horse
Millefleur
Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
My body is a completely interdependant system with a centralised 'processor' that regulates behaviour and monitors information.
That's "me".
That's "me".
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."
Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
Yep, due to your individual neurochemistry and life experience, it's uniquely "you". Hey you.Trolldor wrote:My body is a completely interdependant system with a centralised 'processor' that regulates behaviour and monitors information.
That's "me".
no fences
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FBM
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
Rum, the best that I've come up with after years of focusing on precisely this question is, "Yes, but it's not what you think it is". In other words, it's a middle ground between eternalism and nihilism. Something is definitely going on, but it's not an 'I' in the conventional sense. Nothing was born (nothing new was created) at birth and nothing ceases to exist at death. Gotta run to class now, but I'll check back on this thread. It's an interesting question, innit?
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
Interesting?
Well, interesting to dismiss definitely.
I exist, objectively. My consciousness only exists so long as my brain is functioning. The moment my brain ceases to function, so do I. Without a functioning consciousness - and by corrollary a brain - you are a sack of slowly decaying meat. There is no "I" there.
In other words, I am alive and then I die. Before the formation of my brain I existed no more than Tom Cruise's heterosexuality. After death I will be as tangible and real as his dignity.
Something new is created during conception. Two sets of biological material - sperm and egg - are fusing together to manifest in to a single cell. The behaviour is changed. If you had left it a few days latter, the sperm would have ceased functioning. A few hours and in all probability a different sperm would have fertalised that egg.
Well, interesting to dismiss definitely.
I exist, objectively. My consciousness only exists so long as my brain is functioning. The moment my brain ceases to function, so do I. Without a functioning consciousness - and by corrollary a brain - you are a sack of slowly decaying meat. There is no "I" there.
In other words, I am alive and then I die. Before the formation of my brain I existed no more than Tom Cruise's heterosexuality. After death I will be as tangible and real as his dignity.
Something new is created during conception. Two sets of biological material - sperm and egg - are fusing together to manifest in to a single cell. The behaviour is changed. If you had left it a few days latter, the sperm would have ceased functioning. A few hours and in all probability a different sperm would have fertalised that egg.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."
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FBM
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
The 'I' you describe seems more like an emergent property or a process instead of a fundamental entity. Would you agree?
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
Genes, then brain, then consciousness.
Emergent? Yes.
But still fundamental.
Consciousness, "me", is required to survive in my environment. Ability to risk assess, and importantly 'invent'.
Emergent? Yes.
But still fundamental.
Consciousness, "me", is required to survive in my environment. Ability to risk assess, and importantly 'invent'.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."
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FBM
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
I'm not sure how something can at once be both an emergent property and a fundamental entity.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
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Robert_S
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Re: Do 'I' actually exist?
It's complicated. The truth or falsehood depends on what you mean by "I" and what you mean by "exist".
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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-Mr P
The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange
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