Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

[Cunt]

When I worked for an airline, there was a 'human factors' course. This was their way of addressing the inevitable human factors, from errors to spiting one's boss, and in my opinion has been VERY effective at keeping our planes flying safely.

His crime, in my opinion, is small (life imprisonment or execution at max) and there is much more going on here than such a paltry slap on the wrist can properly account for.

The people who enabled this to happen should be even more accountable than the offender, I guess.

I also have come to think that Julian Assange has done nothing wrong by publishing the docs. With that said, I definitely agree with your feeling of frustration about the way this leak will affect the future. I think it is for the best, but not without a lot of dirty shit happening first. You think it's for the worst (I think) with a lot of dirty shit happening.

Those who created the system incorrectly (or worse - maybe someone made it poorly to make their bosses look bad...sabotage?) will have to be where corrective measures are placed. There will always be more 'Private Mannings' to remind us of the 'human factors'.

[Gawd]

I can't believe you guys. Here we have two heroes, Manning and Assange, that show us just what the American government is doing behind our backs and you guys are discussing how we can prevent something like this from coming out ever again. You guys would fit in fine with Stalin and his Siberia exile squad.

[Ian]

Cunt -
You're correct that Assange has done nothing wrong in publishing what he received (unless he solicited it beforehand). By "nothing wrong", that means nothing illegal. But he's done tons wrong as far as ethics goes. Publishing absolutely everything, regardless of whistle-blower value or the subsequent damage to the world, is just gratuitous. It lies somewhere between nihilism and anarchism.

Manning's crime wasn't small. I don't agree that his superiors should be held even more accountable. I'd say they were neglegent with security, but accountable for what he did? Nah. Not their fault he turned out to be a criminal. Assange can call him a political prisoner all he likes, but Manning wasn't arrested for whatever his politics are. He was arrested because he downloaded hundreds of thousands of classified documents, more than he ever could have read and digested, and forwarded them to someone without access. That's a crime, not a political action. The fact that he wound up with some political supporters after his arrest is completely irrelevant.

Gawd -
We're trying to have an actual intelligent conversation, so just stay out of it. You come in and babble about Stalin and Siberia exile squads and American tyranny, and it just reinforces our belief that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[Gawd]

Well, Ian, your "intelligent conversation" is about preventing the human right, as declared by the UN, of knowing what your government is doing behind your back. I am appalled by the continual display of anti-democratic principles here.

[Meekychuppet]

As far as I am aware Manning was doing what people were told at Nuremberg.

[Ian]

Well, Ian, your "intelligent conversation" is about preventing the human right, as declared by the UN, of knowing what your government is doing behind your back. I am appalled by the continual display of anti-democratic principles here.

Salvador Dali couldn't warp paintings as well as you warp words and ideas. It's really impressive.

There's a difference between democratic principles and anarchistic principles. I'm in favor of the former.

[Cunt]

I have a fair amount of respect for anarchists and nihilists, Ian. Calling them that won't win me over.

Let me phrase it another way. If you set up security in a way that one in a hundred children could release it to the enemy (or media, or Assange) and you left it that way, would you feel a bit responsible if some kid released it to all of the above?

Criminals like Manning (if he is one - I think his trial is still coming) are almost inevitable. Certainly predictable. How would you feel if he bested YOU at your profession? I find it a bit tough to believe that his 'kind' was not accounted for - even planned for. They do it quite routinely in the aviation world...

Gawd is scared of everyone, so will likely run off with 'THE GOV'T DID IT ON PURPOSE TO FRAME ASSANGE/MANNING/THE PALESTINIANS' but what I am suggesting is much less organized than that...just run-of-the-mill negligence flowing out the cracks. Supported by shit policies which are KNOWN to be shit.

[Gawd]

Well, Ian, your "intelligent conversation" is about preventing the human right, as declared by the UN, of knowing what your government is doing behind your back. I am appalled by the continual display of anti-democratic principles here.

Salvador Dali couldn't warp paintings as well as you warp words and ideas. It's really impressive.

There's a difference between democratic principles and anarchistic principles. I'm in favor of the former.

Your words speak otherwise and you mistake dictatorial principles for democratic ones when you advocate "we will tell you what you should know". Leaks of the type we see from Manning and Assange should be encouraged, because otherwise the American government can do what it pleases without the citizens knowing. Were you also one of those people calling for heads when the Iraq war docs were released?

[Ian]

Criminals like Manning (if he is one - I think his trial is still coming) are almost inevitable. Certainly predictable. How would you feel if he bested YOU at your profession? I find it a bit tough to believe that his 'kind' was not accounted for - even planned for. They do it quite routinely in the aviation world...

His kind is very much accounted for, and planned for. Ever heard of the NCIS, among others? But sometimes, it's inevitable. Nothing is airtight, especially when we're talking about access levels possessed by hundreds of thousands of people. I can't plug a flash drive into my computer at work, but if I really wanted to, I could get sensitive information out. The control is also supposed to be about ensuring that dangerous types aren't put in that position in the first place. That means background checks, polygraphs, etc. I've been through all of that, and I'm sure the aviation world checks out people before letting them pilot a plane as well. It doesn't mean that the occasional knucklehead doesn't get through.

[Gawd]

Criminals like Manning (if he is one - I think his trial is still coming) are almost inevitable. Certainly predictable. How would you feel if he bested YOU at your profession? I find it a bit tough to believe that his 'kind' was not accounted for - even planned for. They do it quite routinely in the aviation world...

His kind is very much accounted for, and planned for. Ever heard of the NCIS, among others? But sometimes, it's inevitable. Nothing is airtight, especially when we're talking about access levels possessed by hundreds of thousands of people. I can't plug a flash drive into my computer at work, but if I really wanted to, I could get sensitive information out. The control is also supposed to be about ensuring that dangerous types aren't put in that position in the first place. That means background checks, polygraphs, etc. I've been through all of that, and I'm sure the aviation world checks out people before letting them pilot a plane as well. It doesn't mean that the occasional knucklehead doesn't get through.

Oh, so Manning is now "dangerous" and a "knucklehead". Maybe you should remember what Thomas Jefferson once said: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

It's high time to take out the American trash.

[Mishakal]

Gawd is scared of everyone, so will likely run off with 'THE GOV'T DID IT ON PURPOSE TO FRAME ASSANGE/MANNING/THE PALESTINIANS' but what I am suggesting is much less organized than that...just run-of-the-mill negligence flowing out the cracks. Supported by shit policies which are KNOWN to be shit.

Most of the time there isn't a grand conspiracy involved, just a series of ridiculous fuck-ups that fall on top of one another into a giant shitball of chaos. Which is what I think the whole Wikileaks/Assange/Manning mess is, one thing happened after another until it got big and complicated. Well at least we know more about Anna Nichole...

[Cunt]

But sometimes, it's inevitable. Nothing is airtight, especially when we're talking about access levels possessed by hundreds of thousands of people.

That's what I am getting at. That this isn't a problem with a (predictable, inevitable) criminal, but a problem much larger in scope.

I can't plug a flash drive into my computer at work, but if I really wanted to, I could get sensitive information out.

Exactly my point.
You could be 'gotten to', Ian (and I want to make it clear I mean no slight). There are ways and ways, and even the most well-trained person could crack.

The control is also supposed to be about ensuring that dangerous types aren't put in that position in the first place. That means background checks, polygraphs, etc. I've been through all of that, and I'm sure the aviation world checks out people before letting them pilot a plane as well. It doesn't mean that the occasional knucklehead doesn't get through.

The 'human factors' training (I should make it clear - I didn't take the courses at my level, just reviewed the material with the fellows after) is all about those 'human factors'. You might have someone impaired honestly (fatigue, fear of losing their job, mental health problem) or dishonestly (sabotage, drunk and stupid, fucking the flight attendant when they should be conducting their walk-around) but impairment is a fact of the job, and everyone watches for it. This not being an ideal world, it only works mostly, of course.

So Manning will be killed, or jailed, or discharged...what about the next one? This bell has been rung, and no matter what happens to him, it will look like an appealing career path for more people every day.

[Ian]

So Manning will be killed, or jailed, or discharged...what about the next one? This bell has been rung, and no matter what happens to him, it will look like an appealing career path for more people every day.

You sure about that? There will always be more, but maybe it'll be less frequent. Steps have already been taken to limit sharing of information; Manning couldn't have access to all those State Dept. messages nowadays. Background checks and monitoring of activity will be more thorough. And, depending on what happens to him, it could be quite a deterrent. Maybe. We'll see.

Oh, so Manning is now "dangerous" and a "knucklehead".

Yes and yes. Assange apologists like to make him into something he's most certainly not: an ideology-driven folk hero, someone who sacrificed himself as a martyr for transparency. He is no such thing. Given his circumstances, I think it's pretty obvious that he did what he did for an ego boost, promptly bragging about it to complete strangers on an internet forum. That covers the "knucklehead" part. As for the "dangerous" part, that comes from the fact that he had no idea what was on all those thousands of messages, just that many of them were classified. How could he, given how many there were? And still he forwarded them to be published. That's dangerous, to put it mildly.

[Gawd]

Oh, so Manning is now "dangerous" and a "knucklehead".

Yes and yes. Assange apologists like to make him into something he's most certainly not: an ideology-driven folk hero, someone who sacrificed himself as a martyr for transparency. He is no such thing. Given his circumstances, I think it's pretty obvious that he did what he did for an ego boost, promptly bragging about it to complete strangers on an internet forum. That covers the "knucklehead" part. As for the "dangerous" part, that comes from the fact that he had no idea what was on all those thousands of messages, just that many of them were classified. How could he, given how many there were? And still he forwarded them to be published. That's dangerous, to put it mildly.

Makes George Bush look mild by comparison. Not.

[eXcommunicate]

I probably should have posted this here instead of making a new thread:



Assange is not a Class A prick to me, at all. The guy's stance is completely defensible and he comes across as serious and knowledgeable. He doesn't mince words in interviews with the press and why the fuck should he? Our press is childish and despicable and Assange nails them here in this video. Obviously the man believes in what he does or else he wouldn't do it.

As for Manning; the dude is not a folk hero by any stretch. I'm not sure if he should even be considered a "hero" per se. However, I'm not one to require my heroes to have 100% pure intentions 100% of the time. Sometimes people can do heroic things for stupid or selfish reasons. Sometimes people can do stupid or selfish things that end up changing the world for the better. Maybe that's what will happen. Maybe not. I do thing that without whistleblowers, whatever their motivations, our corporations and governments would be getting away with a lot more than they do now. They should fear leaks, in my opinion.