The Death Penalty is a Good Thing

[Coito ergo sum]

Christians don't interpret it that way. You might believe in murder, but I don't. Then again if you see murder as the fulfilment of scripture, that's your belief.

You mean SOME Christians don't interpret it that way. Others do. Anyone believing the Bible is to be interpreted "literally" clearly must. It's in the plain language of the Bible, going by primary meanings -- to find that it is somehow wrong or immoral to kill a murderer requires that one take the Bible non-literally, and impose a figurative meaning on it, one different than held by the vast majority of followers and religious leaders for 3000 years.

[Hermit]

Christians don't interpret it that way. You might believe in murder, but I don't. Then again if you see murder as the fulfilment of scripture, that's your belief.

Christians have always made a distinction between killing and murder - approving the former and condemning the latter - and that distinction is also made in the bible, according to which the god thingy actually commands the killing of breakers of his laws. Then there were the crusades. Things have changed, you say perhaps? What about the blessing of weapons by bishops of all major christian denominations in wars between christian nations that took place in the 20th century?

[maiforpeace]

Christians don't interpret it that way. You might believe in murder, but I don't. Then again if you see murder as the fulfilment of scripture, that's your belief.

Christians have always made a distinction between killing and murder - approving the former and condemning the latter - and that distinction is also made in the bible, according to which the god thingy actually commands the killing of breakers of his laws. Then there were the crusades. Things have changed, you say perhaps? What about the blessing of weapons by bishops of all major christian denominations in wars between christian nations that took place in the 20th century?

And the U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes on weapons in the current Iraq war?

[Coito ergo sum]

Christians don't interpret it that way. You might believe in murder, but I don't. Then again if you see murder as the fulfilment of scripture, that's your belief.

Christians have always made a distinction between killing and murder - approving the former and condemning the latter - and that distinction is also made in the bible, according to which the god thingy actually commands the killing of breakers of his laws. Then there were the crusades. Things have changed, you say perhaps? What about the blessing of weapons by bishops of all major christian denominations in wars between christian nations that took place in the 20th century?

Most Christians....the Amish - are Christians, and they say that all killing is wrong, even in self defense. The prevailing view, of course, is exactly as you say - self-defense, war, and capital punishment - all o.k.

The Amish, of course, are not Biblical literalists, and discard most of the Old Testament as not part of their covenant with God.

(corrected)

[Hermit]

Christians don't interpret it that way. You might believe in murder, but I don't. Then again if you see murder as the fulfilment of scripture, that's your belief.

Christians have always made a distinction between killing and murder - approving the former and condemning the latter - and that distinction is also made in the bible, according to which the god thingy actually commands the killing of breakers of his laws. Then there were the crusades. Things have changed, you say perhaps? What about the blessing of weapons by bishops of all major christian denominations in wars between christian nations that took place in the 20th century?

And the U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes on weapons in the current Iraq war?

You could possibly put that down to a rogue christian who happened to own a factory that made telescopes for military sniper rifles. Catholic, protestant and anglican bishops, not to mention the millions of christians that volunteered themselves into armed services, however...

[JQisAwesome]

Any good punishment should work as a deterrent.

Nobody paces outside a liquor store, contemplating if they should rob it or not, and considers the possibility of lethal injection. They fear prison. Nobody is afraid of the death penalty because it's so rarely used. So ironically, our apprehension about it is what makes it so ineffective.

[Hermit]

Brilliant!

If we impose the death penalty for every crime, nobody will commit one out of sheer fear.

Bring it on, man!

[my_wan]

Any good punishment should work as a deterrent.

Nobody paces outside a liquor store, contemplating if they should rob it or not, and considers the possibility of lethal injection. They fear prison. Nobody is afraid of the death penalty because it's so rarely used. So ironically, our apprehension about it is what makes it so ineffective.

I would say that the "apprehension about it" is what makes people more dangerous. Did the death penalty of losing a gun fight stop duals? If the death penalty was actually a deterrent as claimed, gun duals shouldn't exist. What about the gangs who hunt, and are hunted by, rival gang members to kill? Oh, if I get caught by a rival gang it's death, so I guess that's a deterrent to joining a gang. So what if it's the death penalty if the cops catch them? Think maybe the death penalty is more likely to result in the cop being shot? After all, if the death penalty was a deterrent they wouldn't be in the gang in the first place. The only thing the death penalty would do is make them more deadly when cornered.

No, I don't buy the "deterrent" argument.

[FBM]

The legend of Sun Tzu includes the story that he was challenged to turn a group of pampered courtesans into a fighting squad, if he wanted to be appointed commanding general. He appointed the two senior ladies-in-waiting as squad leaders, gave the group assembly instruction, then told the two to assemble their charges. They giggled. He beheaded them on the spot and appointed two new squad leaders. When he gave the next orders to assemble, nobody giggled. They lined up and drilled as instructed. Cruel, yes. Effective, yes.

I'm not making any assertions pro or con about the death penalty; only giving an example of how the threat of death can affect behavior. I'm pretty much amoral, so I don't care about the morality angle. When done right, it can solve problems. If a system gives a death sentence and waits 40 years (providing free room and board, entertainment, counseling, etc, at the expense of the often-unwilling innocent, in the meantime) to execute the sentence, few of the hard-core criminal mindset will be seriously deterred by it. More than a few on death row have died of natural causes before their sentence was ever carried out.

And there's the odd case of a few on death row who have been proven innocent. What a dilemma, eh?

Life is rare in the universe, and precious. We shouldn't extinguish it frivolously. But neither should we feel obliged to let others feel free to do so. One day it could be me or you or one of our loved ones with a killer's knife at our throat. But as long as we're not the killers, we need not fear the death penalty.

[Chuck Jones]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Hermit]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

You are right there.

Still, christians - while disapproving of murder, find lots of justifications for not regarding the killing other humans as immoral, and the bible supports them in that.

(Yes, yes, I know, Coito)

[Clinton Huxley]

The 13th Protocol of the ECHR, which has been signed by all EU member states and entered into force on 1 July 2003, commits the member states concerned to permanent abolition of the death penalty in all circumstances

So, to our Merkin cousins, I'm afraid the United States will not be allowed to join the European Union until you abolish the death penalty.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

And the U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes on weapons in the current Iraq war?

Of course that wasn't government sponsored or approved. Some idiot getting holy.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The 13th Protocol of the ECHR, which has been signed by all EU member states and entered into force on 1 July 2003, commits the member states concerned to permanent abolition of the death penalty in all circumstances

So, to our Merkin cousins, I'm afraid the United States will not be allowed to join the European Union until you abolish the death penalty.

So, you're against us abolishing it then.

[my_wan]

The legend of Sun Tzu includes the story that he was challenged to turn a group of pampered courtesans into a fighting squad, if he wanted to be appointed commanding general. He appointed the two senior ladies-in-waiting as squad leaders, gave the group assembly instruction, then told the two to assemble their charges. They giggled. He beheaded them on the spot and appointed two new squad leaders. When he gave the next orders to assemble, nobody giggled. They lined up and drilled as instructed. Cruel, yes. Effective, yes.

I'm quiet amoral about it myself to a large extent, even the "effect" desired is a morally based. The Romans were quiet "effective" with their ruthlessness to, but it lead to the likes of Spartacus. What happens socially when we drive the punishment cost that high? For one we get ruthless cops, required for their own protection. With such ruthless tactics comes a price for any innocent person walking down the road in the wrong place, and the way they are treated when they get questioned. People who grow up subjected to this often percieve their only option to be criminal enterprises.

So I can't argue that timely death penalties aren't "effective" in modifying behavior, but what behavior it elicits in narrowly defined situations doesn't say much about the general behaviors it elicits socially. Push it far enough and you end up with something akin to a Spartacus, with a sympathetic public that doesn't see the cops as any better.

The total social effect is far bigger than any behavioral instance you can hold up as indicative of "effectiveness".