BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Mr P » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:25 pm

pawiz wrote:Just watched it on yoo toob.

I have no clue what Penrose was on about.

I paraphrase Penrose: "Once the universe gets so big and is only made of photons, it will lose track of how big it is and big becomes the same as small, and so the cycle continues with another big bang."

What the fuck is that all about?
Penrose hypothesises that in the (very) distant future all massive particles will have decayed, this includes all black hole sucumbing to Hawking radiation, which means a timescale measured in googols of years. The universe will be a sea of photons and gravitons which, as massless particles, don't "experience" the passage of time due to all their energy being expressed as a function of their frequency: Image In this "timeless" universe all measurements of distance become meaningless and the universe essentially becomes an unstable chaotic system out of which emerges a new "aeon" (as Penrose calls each new expansion).

This can arise because in the high energy phase of the next aeon during the initial Planck era all particles will have an energy that exceeds any limit set by the Higgs field (if it exists :) ) meaning that their energy content is also expressed as Image Penrose hypothesises that the end of one aeon transitions smoothly into the begining of the next thanks to this process.

He details this using conformal diagrams (which, I have to admit, I'm still getting my head round) and calls his theory conformal cyclic cosmology. He explains it in reasonably understandable terms in his book Cycles of Time wot I just finished reading.

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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:44 pm

Mr P wrote:
pawiz wrote:Just watched it on yoo toob.

I have no clue what Penrose was on about.

I paraphrase Penrose: "Once the universe gets so big and is only made of photons, it will lose track of how big it is and big becomes the same as small, and so the cycle continues with another big bang."

What the fuck is that all about?
Penrose hypothesises that in the (very) distant future all massive particles will have decayed, this includes all black hole sucumbing to Hawking radiation, which means a timescale measured in googols of years. The universe will be a sea of photons and gravitons which, etc.
Does this mean there's already a sea of photons and gravitons beyond our universe, left over from the previous universes? (If the hypothesis is correct)
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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Mr P » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:52 pm

Deep Sea Isopod wrote:
Mr P wrote:
pawiz wrote:Just watched it on yoo toob.

I have no clue what Penrose was on about.

I paraphrase Penrose: "Once the universe gets so big and is only made of photons, it will lose track of how big it is and big becomes the same as small, and so the cycle continues with another big bang."

What the fuck is that all about?
Penrose hypothesises that in the (very) distant future all massive particles will have decayed, this includes all black hole sucumbing to Hawking radiation, which means a timescale measured in googols of years. The universe will be a sea of photons and gravitons which, etc.
Does this mean there's already a sea of photons and gravitons beyond our universe, left over from the previous universes? (If the hypothesis is correct)
Not quite sure, I'll have to re-read the book at some point... or get someone else to read it for me and explain. He does postulate that there should be patterns in the CMB left over from the previous aeon, these may be the photons from that aeon expressing their energy in this one. Essentially a sort of recycling process that preserves the second law of thermodynamics.

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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:56 pm

Mr P wrote:
Deep Sea Isopod wrote:
Mr P wrote:
pawiz wrote:Just watched it on yoo toob.

I have no clue what Penrose was on about.

I paraphrase Penrose: "Once the universe gets so big and is only made of photons, it will lose track of how big it is and big becomes the same as small, and so the cycle continues with another big bang."

What the fuck is that all about?
Penrose hypothesises that in the (very) distant future all massive particles will have decayed, this includes all black hole sucumbing to Hawking radiation, which means a timescale measured in googols of years. The universe will be a sea of photons and gravitons which, etc.
Does this mean there's already a sea of photons and gravitons beyond our universe, left over from the previous universes? (If the hypothesis is correct)
Not quite sure, I'll have to re-read the book at some point... or get someone else to read it for me and explain. He does postulate that there should be patterns in the CMB left over from the previous aeon, these may be the photons from that aeon expressing their energy in this one. Essentially a sort of recycling process that preserves the second law of thermodynamics.
Maybe this current universe has recycled some of the photons, etc, but there should still be some floating about outside. If we can find evidence of this it would support the hypothesis, no?
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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Mr P » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:15 pm

Deep Sea Isopod wrote:I have no clue what Penrose was on about.

I paraphrase Penrose: "Once the universe gets so big and is only made of photons, it will lose track of how big it is and big becomes the same as small, and so the cycle continues with another big bang."

What the fuck is that all about?
Mr P wrote:Penrose hypothesises that in the (very) distant future all massive particles will have decayed, this includes all black hole sucumbing to Hawking radiation, which means a timescale measured in googols of years. The universe will be a sea of photons and gravitons which, etc.
Deep Sea Isopod wrote:Does this mean there's already a sea of photons and gravitons beyond our universe, left over from the previous universes? (If the hypothesis is correct)
Mr P wrote:Not quite sure, I'll have to re-read the book at some point... or get someone else to read it for me and explain. He does postulate that there should be patterns in the CMB left over from the previous aeon, these may be the photons from that aeon expressing their energy in this one. Essentially a sort of recycling process that preserves the second law of thermodynamics.
Deep Sea Isopod wrote:Maybe this current universe has recycled some of the photons, etc, but there should still be some floating about outside. If we can find evidence of this it would support the hypothesis, no?
It's a possibility, Penrose concentrates on the observable effects that should be evident in the CMB... and perhaps even a gravity wave background, provided it exists. :)

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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:21 pm

Mr P wrote:
Deep Sea Isopod wrote:Maybe this current universe has recycled some of the photons, etc, but there should still be some floating about outside. If we can find evidence of this it would support the hypothesis, no?
It's a possibility,
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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by cowiz » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:10 pm

Okay, so if I understand correctly. Time is a property of mass. Space-time therefore would contain no space or time if there was no mass. So the sum total mass of the universe would be zero, correct? At this point it is in effect a singularity and thus the cycle would start again.

Why is time a property of mass?
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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Mr P » Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:16 pm

pawiz wrote:Why is time a property of mass?
According to relativity all objects travel through spacetime at the speed of light c, this means the quicker you travel through space the slower you travel through time. Thanks to E=mc2 this means only massless particles can travel at c and they don't experience the flow of time. However this isn't to say that time doesn't exist, it's just that at this point in the life of the universe nothing within this system experiences its passage.

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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Rum » Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:56 pm

Fuck me!

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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:48 pm

Rum wrote:Fuck me!

Wrong thread. :coffee:
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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by cowiz » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:17 pm

Deep Sea Isopod wrote:
Rum wrote:Fuck me!

Wrong thread. :coffee:
Or perhaps a posting without substance will make this thread start all over again.
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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Clinton Huxley » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:19 pm

When all there is is cake, perspective is lost and it might as well just be a crumb.

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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by klr » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:31 pm

Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Evidence of events that happened before the Big Bang can be seen in the glow of microwave radiation that fills the Universe, scientists have asserted.

Renowned cosmologist Roger Penrose said that analysis of this cosmic microwave background showed echoes of previous Big Bang-like events.

The events appear as "rings" around galaxy clusters in which the variation in the background is unusually low.

The unpublished research has been posted on the Arxiv website.

...
More here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11837869
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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Eriku » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:56 pm

Deep Sea Isopod wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Deep Sea Isopod wrote:The thing that is a bit scary, is if there was a universe before, which faded away to make room for our universe, is that all life in the previous universe has been wiped out, and ultimately all life in this universe will share the same fate.
Something to worry about in a few trillion years time then. :tea:

I'm worrying about it now! What if I live that long! It will kill me and then I will die! :shock: :cry:
I'm pretty sure that if the Universe arrives at such a state that it ends it'll be as a result of some changes... some of which will have wiped us out way earlier.

Comforted yet?

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Re: BBC Horizon: What Happened Before The Big Bang

Post by Rum » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:58 pm

klr wrote:
Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Evidence of events that happened before the Big Bang can be seen in the glow of microwave radiation that fills the Universe, scientists have asserted.

Renowned cosmologist Roger Penrose said that analysis of this cosmic microwave background showed echoes of previous Big Bang-like events.

The events appear as "rings" around galaxy clusters in which the variation in the background is unusually low.

The unpublished research has been posted on the Arxiv website.

...
More here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11837869
I actually read the whole report and then went to the source at Arxiv and tried (being the operative word) to read the actual paper. I understood every few words!

However I kind of made sense of it - and it is fascinating!

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