Why Johnny can't code

[beige]

I have my first C++ lecture this Tuesday at 9:00AM. I can see that timeslot not helping.

[Ronja]

I have my first C++ lecture this Tuesday at 9:00AM. I can see that timeslot not helping.

My condolences. Keep us posted about how that goes. Does not have to be horrible, may require quite a bit of caffeine-rich drink of your preference.

[VazScep]

I once took a class in Assembly Language just to have something to do.

Some assembly languages are extremely simple. The ARM RISC assembly language was tiny, at least back in the mid-90s. You can learn all the instructions in an afternoon. Teaching kids such assembly languages can show them what computation is really about, and show them how few instructions are actually needed to carry out any task that any computer can perform. Some toy-assembly languages are even used as mathematical formalisms for computation.

Just don't teach Intel Assembler, not for modern processors. That's a monster that only compilers should understand.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

This topic has echoes with debates in maths education about the use of various types of calculators at various levels, and the degree to which their use could become a crutch which hampers useful skills in some situations.

For example, some people argue that, with wide-spread calculator use, the times tables should be put on the scrap heap. However, a knowledge of the times tables makes processes such as factorisation so much easier... On the other hand, long division is probably best seen as an historical curiosity.

The latest CAS calculators, with their ability to manipulate and solve algebraic expressions and equations, have heightened the debate.

I forget how to do long division within a week after the last use and have to actually reinvent it on occasion.

What I want to know is how many people who can remember the procedure of long division actually understand why it works and could reinvent it should they forget how it's done.

I once wrote programs in BASIC to add, subtract, multiply and divide integers of any length - using string functions to convert sections of each number into integers and recombine the sections afterwards. Since it was running on a relatively early Amiga, it wasn't too sprightly, but I did manage to get it to generate factorials of all integers up into the early thousands.

So, yes, I could reinvent long-division. Anyone that understands what it is doing and how it works could. Although I would rather spend my time in the pub until the call comes.

[Clinton Huxley]

I remember the old days when you could walk into Boots and see a row of Soectrums, Dragon 32s and Amstrads, each running the same programme:-

10 print "fuck off"
20 goto 10

Happy days.

[Robert_S]

I once took a class in Assembly Language just to have something to do.

Were you by any chance sane at the time, or were you just your usual deranged self?

At the time I was waiting to go to Purdue, and living in a house on a corner. The other three corners were fields with corn or soybeans. The land behind the house was corn or soybeans. From my second floor room I could see two things.

Was that back in the day when Assembly implied a soldering iron?

[Tigger]

I have my first C++ lecture this Tuesday at 9:00AM. I can see that timeslot not helping.

I did a c++ module at uni a while back. I enjoyed it.

[klr]

Bump. There was a piece on BBC Newsnight last night (10/10/2011) that relates to this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/n ... 612063.stm - "Is lack of computer science teaching failing pupils?"

If I find a video on YouTube or elsewhere, I'll post it here as well.

[hiyymer]

Bump. There was a piece on BBC Newsnight last night (10/10/2011) that relates to this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/n ... 612063.stm - "Is lack of computer science teaching failing pupils?"

If I find a video on YouTube or elsewhere, I'll post it here as well.

Interesting. I amend my former advocacy of 'c'. Been doing a lot of java lately and liking it better. Definitely easier to pick up than 'c'. The fact that everything gets passed as a reference is the one niggly thing that you have to get used to.

Whatever happened to FORTRAN (my first and only programming course)?

Even here in the US, I remember my step son making the same kind of comments about the high school computer curriculum. Big disappointment. He got into hacking and picked up machine language to do that before he got into programming in any serious way. Seems to me the point was well taken before, that kids are either going to get into it or not. The only thing the schools need to do is set up the situation where they do actual programming and see whether the light bulb goes off or not. It's not hard. My college course in 1964 for engineer wannabes was just to program and debug a standard deviation calculation as homework while getting lectures at class time about programming concepts. Not rocket science. It was in FORTRAN on card decks, so it took the term to get it debugged anyways. From what I gather, the full blown MIS courses, learning database theory and such, don't do much but give you some work credentials.

[klr]

Bump. There was a piece on BBC Newsnight last night (10/10/2011) that relates to this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/n ... 612063.stm - "Is lack of computer science teaching failing pupils?"

If I find a video on YouTube or elsewhere, I'll post it here as well.

Interesting. I amend my former advocacy of 'c'. Been doing a lot of java lately and liking it better. Definitely easier to pick up than 'c'. The fact that everything gets passed as a reference is the one niggly thing that you have to get used to.

Whatever happened to FORTRAN (my first and only programming course)?

Even here in the US, I remember my step son making the same kind of comments about the high school computer curriculum. Big disappointment. He got into hacking and picked up machine language to do that before he got into programming in any serious way. Seems to me the point was well taken before, that kids are either going to get into it or not. The only thing the schools need to do is set up the situation where they do actual programming and see whether the light bulb goes off or not. It's not hard. My college course in 1964 for engineer wannabes was just to program and debug a standard deviation calculation as homework while getting lectures at class time about programming concepts. Not rocket science. It was in FORTRAN on card decks, so it took the term to get it debugged anyways. From what I gather, the full blown MIS courses, learning database theory and such, don't do much but give you some work credentials.

Indeed it's not hard at all. but this basic "screening" exercise just doesn't seem to get done.

[leo-rcc]

I remember the old days when you could walk into Boots and see a row of Soectrums, Dragon 32s and Amstrads, each running the same programme:-

10 print "fuck off"
20 goto 10

Happy days.

No imagination.

10 a=a+1
20 print spc(a);"Fuck off"
30 if a=32 then a=0
40 goto 10

[Jason]

Bump. There was a piece on BBC Newsnight last night (10/10/2011) that relates to this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/n ... 612063.stm - "Is lack of computer science teaching failing pupils?"

If I find a video on YouTube or elsewhere, I'll post it here as well.

Interesting. I amend my former advocacy of 'c'. Been doing a lot of java lately and liking it better. Definitely easier to pick up than 'c'. The fact that everything gets passed as a reference is the one niggly thing that you have to get used to.

Whatever happened to FORTRAN (my first and only programming course)?

Even here in the US, I remember my step son making the same kind of comments about the high school computer curriculum. Big disappointment. He got into hacking and picked up machine language to do that before he got into programming in any serious way. Seems to me the point was well taken before, that kids are either going to get into it or not. The only thing the schools need to do is set up the situation where they do actual programming and see whether the light bulb goes off or not. It's not hard. My college course in 1964 for engineer wannabes was just to program and debug a standard deviation calculation as homework while getting lectures at class time about programming concepts. Not rocket science. It was in FORTRAN on card decks, so it took the term to get it debugged anyways. From what I gather, the full blown MIS courses, learning database theory and such, don't do much but give you some work credentials.

Indeed it's not hard at all. but this basic "screening" exercise just doesn't seem to get done.

In highschool I wrote a 20,000 line program for this assignment we had to do using every technique taught to us, and some that hadn't been, (our teacher, Mr. Fangraad [still remember the pricks name] had been big on teaching us OOP, as if it was something new and complicated ) it was flawless and I wrote and debugged it in two days then helped my friends work on their projects.. then he marked me not on my coding, but my game design.

Fucker.

[Jason]

I have my first C++ lecture this Tuesday at 9:00AM. I can see that timeslot not helping.

C++ is the bestest!

I came from C to C++ and was like..

It simplified things so much it was amazing.

[Don't Panic]

For example, some people argue that, with wide-spread calculator use, the times tables should be put on the scrap heap. However, a knowledge of the times tables makes processes such as factorisation so much easier... On the other hand, long division is probably best seen as an historical curiosity.

While I'm not sure exactly where I sit on the matter... I do think simple mental arithmetic is a vital life skill. Being able to add, subtract, multiply and divide in your head comes in handy in many, many practical situations. Even now, when almost everyone carries a calculator on their mobile phone, it's not feasible to pull it out for quick sums.

I agree, but it is a diminshing skill except for some that use it daily, I suspect...

I am capable of rapid-fire addition of numbers, simply because of the number of tests I correct. Use it or lose it...

I used to get into trouble in primary school for doing the long division in my head and not showing my work in general, the teacher was sure I was using a calculator, so he put some problems on the board and told me to solve them. He stopped annoying me after that.

[pcCoder]

I once took a class in Assembly Language just to have something to do.

Some assembly languages are extremely simple. The ARM RISC assembly language was tiny, at least back in the mid-90s. You can learn all the instructions in an afternoon. Teaching kids such assembly languages can show them what computation is really about, and show them how few instructions are actually needed to carry out any task that any computer can perform. Some toy-assembly languages are even used as mathematical formalisms for computation.

Just don't teach Intel Assembler, not for modern processors. That's a monster that only compilers should understand.

I remember doing BASIC around 9yo. When I was about 12 and learned C and C++ I was interested in game programming and also learned some x86 assembler. I coded a keyboard handler and mode 13 graphics routines in assembler before realizing I could do the same thing in the Turbo C++ compiler I had at the time. But it was a good learning experience on how to link to assembler code from a C/C++ application.