Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post Reply
User avatar
The Curious Squid
Lazy Spic Bastard
Posts: 7648
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:51 pm
About me: a sexually deviant misogynist sexist pig who's into sex trafficking, sexual slavery, murder, bondage, rape and pre-frontal lobotomy of your victims.
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by The Curious Squid » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:19 pm

Feck wrote:I seems strange to me that we accept what the Astronomers say , Mathematicians, Physicists, zoologists ,Doctors etc but When it comes to something like Global warming suddenly there is a bunch of people who (some with vested interests) Demand a final absolute answer . Smoking causes Cancer , You will find it hard to find empirical evidence that it causes cancer by itself . You cannot take a patient with cancer and Prove that smoking caused it .It seems some of the Climate change deniers are asking for this.
The fact that They cry for evidence and then say "Oh those papers were too much to wade through." makes me think arguing with them is fruitless .

They remind me of the supporters commercial sea fishing who think that all scientists lie just to ruin their livelihoods. In living memory we have had the total collapse of the north sea Herring industry due to overfishing the average size of the fish caught of All species is getting smaller year by year ,but this is just the scientists telling lies ....

When it comes to the effects of climate change If there is a 90% chance that even 10% of the dire warnings are true then 10% chance our grandchildren will laugh at us for being so silly or a 90% chance that they will be struggling to live in a very different world to the one we enjoy .

If you want to call me a god denialist I don't object :D and this isn't a site FOR anything .

Don't patronise me and try to imply that I don't know that the Carbon dioxide levels are only 391 ppm and that's not very much ! it's still 35% higher due to man's effect .
:clap:

Well said Feck :cheers:
We have no great war, no great depression.
Our great war is a spiritual war.
Our great depression is our lives.
JimC wrote:Ratz is just beautiful... :woot:

Where else could you go from the taste of raw egg to licking marmalade off tits in such a short space of time?
Pensioner wrote:I worked for 50 years and that's long enough for anyone, luckily I worked to live not lived for work.
Lozzer wrote:You ain't Scottish unless you live off Chicken nuggets, White Lightening and speak like an incomprehensible cow.

User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by mistermack » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:21 pm

Animavore wrote:
90% is as good as probable.
Ok, so I'm a DENIALIST of something that is as good as probable. I suppose I'll have to learn to live with the shame.

And Feck, there is a huge difference. Astronomers can predict events years in advance, AND THEY HAPPEN.
We can't predict the weather much more than a month, and we have not predicted the climate ever. At all. Not once. Never. In fact, all we've done so far, is get it wrong.
We're marvellous at predicting climate from the past though, I will admit that.
.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

datinsky
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by datinsky » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:28 pm

Ok, My name is Dana and I want to thank you for inviting me to this site. I love rational thought and I am a strong atheist. Not sure what argumentative means in this context as I posted a strong refutation on the idea that climate change is well settled. Let me ask you a question.

What is the percentage possibility that the earth is not flat?
What is the percentage possibility that 2+2=4
What is the percentage possibilty that CO2 increase in the atmoshpere forces temperature to rise?
What is the percentage that global warming is currently man produced by adding additional CO2 to the atmosphere?

Pensioner
Grumpy old fart.
Posts: 3066
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 7:22 am
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by Pensioner » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:01 pm

mistermack wrote:
Animavore wrote:
90% is as good as probable.
Ok, so I'm a DENIALIST of something that is as good as probable. I suppose I'll have to learn to live with the shame.

And Feck, there is a huge difference. Astronomers can predict events years in advance, AND THEY HAPPEN.
We can't predict the weather much more than a month, and we have not predicted the climate ever. At all. Not once. Never. In fact, all we've done so far, is get it wrong.
We're marvellous at predicting climate from the past though, I will admit that.
.
Do you know the deference between climate and weather?
“I wish no harm to any human being, but I, as one man, am going to exercise my freedom of speech. No human being on the face of the earth, no government is going to take from me my right to speak, my right to protest against wrong, my right to do everything that is for the benefit of mankind. I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot.”

John Maclean (Scottish socialist) speech from the Dock 1918.

User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by mistermack » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:18 pm

Pensioner ; Yes I do thanks. Why do you ask? Or is deference a trick question?

Dana, welcome to the forum from me too.

I would say 100% to your questions, (really 99,999999') if you add the word partly to the last one.
It's a question of how much warming is man-caused, and I believe minimal is the answer.

I have a similar question of my own though.
What is the chance of warming being beneficial, and the same of it being harmful? And the same for neutral?
Because the world seems to have decided that question, without any need for proof at all.
.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

User avatar
Pappa
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Posts: 56488
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:42 am
About me: I am sacrificing a turnip as I type.
Location: Le sud du Pays de Galles.
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by Pappa » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:24 pm

mistermack wrote:What is the chance of warming being beneficial, and the same of it being harmful? And the same for neutral?
Because the world seems to have decided that question, without any need for proof at all.
Lots of studies have been done, and the predominant outcome is definitely harmful.

But I forget, you don't regard computer models as proof of anything.
For information on ways to help support Rationalia financially, see our funding page.


When the aliens do come, everything we once thought was cool will then make us ashamed.

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:26 pm

O.k., mistermack, you had trouble with the link -

Here it is again: http://www.grida.no/publications/other/ ... /index.htm

Click on Technical Summary and go to Section E.

I think you should read the whole thing, but Section E addresses the human causation issue you brought up.
E. The Identification of a Human Influence on Climate Change

Sections B and C characterised the observed past changes in climate and in forcing agents, respectively. Section D examined the capabilities of climate models to predict the response of the climate system to such changes in forcing. This Section uses that information to examine the question of whether a human influence on climate change to date can be identified.
This is an important point to address. The SAR concluded that "the balance of evidence suggests that there is a discernible human influence on global climate". It noted that the detection and attribution of anthropogenic climate change signals will be accomplished through a gradual accumulation of evidence. The SAR also noted uncertainties in a number of factors, including internal variability and the magnitude and patterns of forcing and response, which prevented them from drawing a stronger conclusion.

E.1 The Meaning of Detection and Attribution

Detection is the process of demonstrating that an observed change is significantly different (in a statistical sense) than can be explained by natural variability. Attribution is the process of establishing cause and effect with some defined level of confidence, including the assessment of competing hypotheses. The response to anthropogenic changes in climate forcing occurs against a backdrop of natural internal and externally forced climate variability. Internal climate variability, i.e., climate variability not forced by external agents, occurs on all time-scales from weeks to centuries and even millennia. Slow climate components, such as the ocean, have particularly important roles on decadal and century time-scales because they integrate weather variability. Thus, the climate is capable of producing long time-scale variations of considerable magnitude without external influences. Externally forced climate variations (signals) may be due to changes in natural forcing factors, such as solar radiation or volcanic aerosols, or to changes in anthropogenic forcing factors, such as increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases or aerosols. The presence of this natural climate variability means that the detection and attribution of anthropogenic climate change is a statistical "signal to noise" problem. Detection studies demonstrate whether or not an observed change is highly unusual in a statistical sense, but this does not necessarily imply that we understand its causes. The attribution of climate change to anthropogenic causes involves statistical analysis and the careful assessment of multiple lines of evidence to demonstrate, within a pre-specified margin of error, that the observed changes are:
unlikely to be due entirely to internal variability;
consistent with the estimated responses to the given combination of anthropogenic and natural forcing; and
not consistent with alternative, physically plausible explanations of recent climate change that exclude important elements of the given combination of forcings.
E.2 A Longer and More Closely Scrutinised Observational Record


Figure 14: Global mean surface air temperature anomalies from 1,000 year control simulations with three different climate models, - Hadley, Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory and Hamburg, compared to the recent instrumental record. No model control simulation shows a trend in surface air temperature as large as the observed trend. If internal variability is correct in these models, the recent warming is likely not due to variability produced within the climate system alone. [Based on Figure 12.1]
Three of the last five years (1995, 1997 and 1998) were the warmest globally in the instrumental record. The impact of observational sampling errors has been estimated for the global and hemispheric mean temperature record. There is also a better understanding of the errors and uncertainties in the satellite-based (Microwave Sounding Unit, MSU) temperature record. Discrepancies between MSU and radiosonde data have largely been resolved, although the observed trend in the difference between the surface and lower tropospheric temperatures cannot fully be accounted for (see Section B). New reconstructions of temperature over the last 1,000 years indicate that the temperature changes over the last hundred years are unlikely to be entirely natural in origin, even taking into account the large uncertainties in palaeo-reconstructions (see Section B).

E.3 New Model Estimates of Internal Variability

The warming over the past 100 years is very unlikely to be due to internal variability alone, as estimated by current models. The instrumental record is short and covers the period of human influence and palaeo-records include natural forced variations, such as those due to variations in solar irradiance and in the frequency of major volcanic eruptions. These limitations leave few alternatives to using long "control" simulations with coupled models for the estimation of internal climate variability. Since the SAR, more models have been used to estimate the magnitude of internal climate variability, a representative sample of which is given in Figure 14. As can be seen, there is a wide range of global scale internal variability in these models. Estimates of the longer time-scale variability relevant to detection and attribution studies is uncertain, but, on interannual and decadal time-scales, some models show similar or larger variability than observed, even though models do not include variance from external sources. Conclusions on detection of an anthropogenic signal are insensitive to the model used to estimate internal variability, and recent changes cannot be accounted for as pure internal variability, even if the amplitude of simulated internal variations is increased by a factor of two or perhaps more. Most recent detection and attribution studies find no evidence that model-estimated internal variability at the surface is inconsistent with the residual variability that remains in the observations after removal of the estimated anthropogenic signals on the large spatial and long time-scales used in detection and attribution studies. Note, however, the ability to detect inconsistencies is limited. As Figure 14 indicates, no model control simulation shows a trend in surface air temperature as large as the observed trend over the last 1,000 years.

NOTE: that is the technical SUMMARY - so, if you don't think it's detailed enough, you need to look at the IPCC report in toto and read it.

User avatar
Animavore
Nasty Hombre
Posts: 39276
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:26 am
Location: Ire Land.
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by Animavore » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:28 pm

mistermack wrote:Ok, so I'm a DENIALIST of something that is as good as probable. I suppose I'll have to learn to live with the shame.
Ahem. 90% probable.

But that's ok. You go ahead and disagree with a science which 97% of its practitioners agree with in the same way creationists agree with the 2% of biologists who don't accept evolution due to vested interests. Agree with economists who have vested interests before you agree with climate scientists in the same way creationists agree with lawyers and engineers before they agree with biologists. Agree with John Coleman, a man who claims to be a scientist, but is actually a weatherman, not even a meteorologist, in the same way creationists agree with Kent Hovind, another man with no science degree, over the age of the earth and agree with John Coleman, also, when he talks about a petition of scientists who reject global warming which he himself has signed, despite not being qualified to, in the same way creationists laud over their little list of Darwin dissenters the petitioners of whom have no qualifications to sign such a petition.
It's no skin off my nose.

Now I want to hear no more comparisons of those that accept global warming as being like religious people when the parallels are on the side of the denialists.
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.

User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by mistermack » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:33 pm

Pappa wrote: Lots of studies have been done, and the predominant outcome is definitely harmful.
Amazing!
Pappa wrote: But I forget, you don't regard computer models as proof of anything.
Not in the field of climate prediction. People seem to talk as if this is an established field, with a long history of correct predictions.
It's a brand new field, with a short history of no correct predictions.
.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

User avatar
Pappa
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Posts: 56488
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:42 am
About me: I am sacrificing a turnip as I type.
Location: Le sud du Pays de Galles.
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by Pappa » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:37 pm

mistermack wrote:
Pappa wrote: Lots of studies have been done, and the predominant outcome is definitely harmful.
Amazing!
You really expect me to bother finding you links to ignore?

mistermack wrote:
Pappa wrote:But I forget, you don't regard computer models as proof of anything.
Not in the field of climate prediction. People seem to talk as if this is an established field, with a long history of correct predictions.
It's a brand new field, with a short history of no correct predictions.
.
That really isn't true. Computer models have been used to correctly predict outcomes of past climate based on past data (natural experiment). The same models are used to predict future changes. Just because it's a new field, it doesn't mean that can't use it to make valid predictions.
For information on ways to help support Rationalia financially, see our funding page.


When the aliens do come, everything we once thought was cool will then make us ashamed.

User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by mistermack » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:41 pm

Animavore, I haven't heard of your straw men.
And the concensus argument is ludicrous, and has been proved wrong again and again over history.
And there are PLENTY of vested interests on the imaginists side, as well as the denialist side.
And most of them have, or are hoping for, well paid jobs in the GW scare industry.
.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

User avatar
Animavore
Nasty Hombre
Posts: 39276
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:26 am
Location: Ire Land.
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by Animavore » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:48 pm

mistermack wrote:Animavore, I haven't heard of your straw men.
And the concensus argument is ludicrous, and has been proved wrong again and again over history.
And there are PLENTY of vested interests on the imaginists side, as well as the denialist side.
And most of them have, or are hoping for, well paid jobs in the GW scare industry.
.
:funny: Imaginist. This gets better and better. You sound more like a creationist with each post. Now you're making up words. Classic creationist manoeuvre.

Look at this bunch of fuck ups below. If you don't see the parallels with these denialists and the Discovery Institute, the whole arguments from authority, lying about their credentials and misrepresenting the facts, you're dead to me.

Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.

User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by mistermack » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:55 pm

Pappa wrote: You really expect me to bother finding you links to ignore?.
No. I'm not really amazed, I was just being sarky. On the basis that any result that comes out beneficial would just get binned.
Pappa wrote: That really isn't true. Computer models have been used to correctly predict outcomes of past climate based on past data
Same principle. They bin everything, and start again, till it fits.
You can't do that making real predictions, only pretend predictions.
Real predictions are an effing nightmare.
Pappa wrote: Just because it's a new field, it doesn't mean that can't use it to make valid predictions.

Quite true. But it can also produce wrong predictions. At a much higher rate. There are an infinite number to choose from (nearly), and only one right one.

These modellers are fantastic. Give them half an hour on a powerful computer, and they'll give you a model that predicted the last ten lottery draws.
Will it predict the next one? Will it bollocks!
.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

datinsky
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by datinsky » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:11 pm

Regarding the accuracy of these wonderful models that everyone wants to base future action on.

Freeman Dyson comments: he has argued that existing simulation models of climate fail to account for some important factors, and hence the results will contain too much error to reliably predict future trends:

'The models solve the equations of fluid dynamics, and they do a very good job of describing the fluid motions of the atmosphere and the oceans. They do a very poor job of describing the"clouds, the dust, the chemistry and the biology of fields and farms and forests. They do not begin to describe the real world we live in..."

" "measurements that transformed global warming from a vague theoretical speculation into a precise observational science are making intellectual leaps of faith that demand strong skepticism..."

Also, comparison of temperature records that show an increase would be based on the correctness of the earlier records. How accurate would you say temperature records would have been 100 years ago? Lets say they have a 1% error rate, now compound that error over 100 years and where do you end up? Not a very accurate result. The true fact is temperature data can give you an approximation, but due to the embedded flaws of the data the results are highly, highly speculative. So to say there is nothing to be doubtful, or skeptical of, with regards to global warming data, is just plain short sided.

What I find amusing is the people that have concluded without a shadow of doubt look to the skeptics as some kind of cult of irrationality, but in actual practice, it is the AGW cult that want any skeptical questioners to go away. No different than jesus freaks that want atheists to go away and stop bothering them with annoying flaws in their data that jesus did in fact exist. Don’t you know the bible is well settled fact and anyone questioning this data is just plain foolish they say. Anyone see the correlation?

The models are suggestive NOT conclusive.
respectfully,

User avatar
Tero
Just saying
Posts: 51222
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:50 pm
About me: 15-32-25
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Evidence for CO2 causing global warming?

Post by Tero » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:25 pm

And if the models are wrong and we follow the ideas it will kill the economy and stop growth...

Wait, do we want to stop growth or not? Now it gets confusing.

Plus people want freedom. They want their own personal climate, not some gubment approved forecast.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests