Philosophy...

[FBM]

Aristotle may have gotten a lot of things wrong, but he was the first 'scientist', in a sense.

There is a fragment by one of the pre-Socratics describing an experiment proving that air is not a vacuum. It involved dipping a cup upside down into water and noticing that the air is not displaced by water. The logic behind the observation was that if air was insubstantial, water would have had no problem filling the cup, even though it was upside down. That may be the first scientific experiment in the western world of which a record survives.

I cannot remember which pre-Socratic it was, nor can I find the relevant fragment now. If someone can find it for me, I'll very much appreciate it.

Maybe: http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=wrNz ... &q&f=false

[mistermack]

In the old days, our ancestors used to sit around an open fire, and talk bollocks. It's very satisfying, and helps bonding. This went on for tens of thousands of years, until the greeks gave it a name, and started writing it down.
I suppose it was vanity that made them give it a fancy name. "Talking bollocks" hasn't got the same ring to it.
.

[floppit]

I wouldn't have missed reading books by Baggini or Grayling.

Life's rich, why clip it down?

[mistermack]

I wouldn't have missed reading books by Baggini or Grayling.

Life's rich, why clip it down?

Life was rich when I believed in the tooth fairy, and Santa Clause. I can't un-grow up. Till I get the alzheimers I suppose.
Not having read those books, I can't comment either way, but they sound ok to me.

[Hermit]

Aristotle may have gotten a lot of things wrong, but he was the first 'scientist', in a sense.

There is a fragment by one of the pre-Socratics describing an experiment proving that air is not a vacuum. It involved dipping a cup upside down into water and noticing that the air is not displaced by water. The logic behind the observation was that if air was insubstantial, water would have had no problem filling the cup, even though it was upside down. That may be the first scientific experiment in the western world of which a record survives.

I cannot remember which pre-Socratic it was, nor can I find the relevant fragment now. If someone can find it for me, I'll very much appreciate it.

Maybe: http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=wrNz ... &q&f=false

Yes, thanks to your pointer I have found the reference in James Fieser's version of The Presocratic Fragments and Testimonials. Here is the relevant portion of fragment 100 by Empedocles: "Just as when a girl, playing with a water-clock of shining brass, puts the orifice of the pipe upon her comely hand, and dips the water-clock into the yielding mass of silvery water -- the stream does not then flow into the vessel, but the bulk of the air inside, pressing upon the close-packed perforations, keeps it out till she uncovers the compressed stream; but then air escapes and an equal volume of water runs in, -- just in the same way, when water occupies the depths of the brazen vessel and the opening and passage is stopped up by the human hand, the air outside, striving to get in, holds the water back at the gates of the ill-sounding neck, pressing upon its surface, till she lets go with her hand."

I had not found it earlier because I insisted on looking for a mention of a 'graceful elbow' of the girl rather than 'comely hand'. Either my memory was being typically unreliable, or I had previously encountered a different explanation.

Also, The point Empedocles was trying to make in the context of this fragment, was not to highlight the fact that air was a substance. That was just an incidental upshot. The purpose of the observation was to serve as an analogy of the breathing process in living beings. Nevertheless, it was an empirical observation, and a well-made one for the time.

[mistermack]

I would be amazed if people were not conscious of air being a tangible fluid, long before the greeks. You only have to open your fingers, and wave your hand very quickly from side to side, to feel it flowing through your fingers.
If you fan your face with your hand, or a handful of leaves, you can feel the fluid flowing on your skin.
And if you run fast, or ride a fast horse, you can feel it on your face, even on a totally still day.
Or blow hard with your mouth closed, and the air forces your cheeks outwards.

I think they were just putting into written words what was already widely known.
.

[Hermit]

I would be amazed if people were not conscious of air being a tangible fluid, long before the greeks.

Be amazed.

...and it's not a fluid either.

[Trolldor]

"Air"

Which part of air?

[mistermack]

I would be amazed if people were not conscious of air being a tangible fluid, long before the greeks.

Be amazed

...and it's not a fluid either.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I meant ALL people.
I meant that some people must have known that air had substance.
If you slaughter an animal, you can blow air into it's intestine, and chase that bubble along yards of gut with your hands. They must have known that there was something tangible in there. You don't need to perform any elaborate experiment.

I don't get that about air not being a fluid, but I'm not going to argue.
.

[Azathoth]

I will. Gases are fluids. They don't support shear stress

[Hermit]

I meant that some people must have known that air had substance.

Quite so, undoubtedly some did, but opinions can be quite resistant to evidence. For instance, Pythagoras, taught that the earth was spherical around 600 BC, and Eratosthenes proved it empirically about 240 BC, yet it wasn't until the 4th century AD that most educated people accepted the fact. It took a lot longer for this acceptance to percolate down to the masses.

Also, Galileo was not officially forgiven by the Vatican for his temerity to undermine the prevailing geocentric orthodoxy until 1967, and get this: "In a Poll conducted by Gallup in 1999, 18% of Americans said that they believe the Sun orbits the Earth. In two polls conducted in 1996, 16% of Germans,and 19% of Britons responded that they also believe the Sun orbits the Earth."

[mistermack]

I can believe that.
It's things like that that make me argue that Chimpanzees should be counted as people.
There is definitely an overlap in the intelligence range of the two species.
.

[Hermit]

I meant that some people must have known that air had substance.

Quite so, undoubtedly some did, but opinions can be quite resistant to evidence. For instance, Pythagoras, taught that the earth was spherical around 600 BC, and Eratosthenes proved it empirically about 240 BC, yet it wasn't until the 4th century AD that most educated people accepted the fact. It took a lot longer for this acceptance to percolate down to the masses.

Also, Galileo was not officially forgiven by the Vatican for his temerity to undermine the prevailing geocentric orthodoxy until 1967, and get this: "In a Poll conducted by Gallup in 1999, 18% of Americans said that they believe the Sun orbits the Earth. In two polls conducted in 1996, 16% of Germans,and 19% of Britons responded that they also believe the Sun orbits the Earth."

I can believe that.
It's things like that that make me argue that Chimpanzees should be counted as people.
There is definitely an overlap in the intelligence range of the two species.

Are you seriously suggesting that some chimpanzees possess sufficient intelligence to ponder whether the sun orbits the earth or the earth orbits the sun, or are you trying to be funny?

[mistermack]

Are you seriously suggesting that some chimpanzees possess sufficient intelligence to ponder whether the sun orbits the earth or the earth orbits the sun, or are you trying to be funny?

There's more to intelligence than pondering the movement of planets.
That's just one kind of intelligence.
There are plenty of humans who wouldn't last five minutes in a Chimpanzee society, even if they were brought up by the chimps.
I've met them.
.

[Trolldor]

You're one of them too.