The 'human condition'

[charlou]

If you life is that fucking bad , if you don't actually think you will survive one more year if Having a baby Every year means maybe one will survive you if you are lucky ,If you have n't learnt to write and couldn't afford paper or a pencil anyway then you probably are not talking about the "Human condition" much .
The whole fucking concept is fucked up and wrapped in humanist (we used to think god loved us but now we think we are special all on our own ) gobshite .


so THAT is the human condition talking about how bad it is? ...... do you want to swap with a Rabbit or a mouse ? then you would be free from that terrible millstone the human condition. do you think pain is only valid if you can express it ? Call it the mortal condition then at least you accept that it's common to all life but the Human condition Don't make me laugh .

blunt, but true.

[Trolldor]

If you life is that fucking bad , if you don't actually think you will survive one more year if Having a baby Every year means maybe one will survive you if you are lucky ,If you have n't learnt to write and couldn't afford paper or a pencil anyway then you probably are not talking about the "Human condition" much .
The whole fucking concept is fucked up and wrapped in humanist (we used to think god loved us but now we think we are special all on our own ) gobshite .


so THAT is the human condition talking about how bad it is? ...... do you want to swap with a Rabbit or a mouse ? then you would be free from that terrible millstone the human condition. do you think pain is only valid if you can express it ? Call it the mortal condition then at least you accept that it's common to all life but the Human condition Don't make me laugh .

The mortal condition?

Common to all life?

Right, because when a mouse loses a child it not only is faced with the present, but the ability to imagine the future, to envision everything that could have been. Every birthday that never will be, every laugh that will never come, every smile, every moment of shared happiness.
Tell me, when a mouse is starved how far in the future does it picture starving? Does it look at the mice around it and picture them starving? Does it look at its children and imagine the agony and pain they must be going through?
When a mouse is hunted, does it picture the acts awaiting it? Does it wonder how long it must endure? Does it ever feel the need to rise up against its oppressors? Does a mouse ever yearn for freedom from its intangible cage?

Tell me, where else in the Animal Kingdom can we find North Korea?
Tell me, what other animal on Earth has seen our planet from the outside?


Name me a single, other species capable of looking at what is, and seeing what should be? Name me just one species capable of taking its future in to its own hands.

[Bolero]

[charlou]

Likewise

[JimC]

If you life is that fucking bad , if you don't actually think you will survive one more year if Having a baby Every year means maybe one will survive you if you are lucky ,If you have n't learnt to write and couldn't afford paper or a pencil anyway then you probably are not talking about the "Human condition" much .
The whole fucking concept is fucked up and wrapped in humanist (we used to think god loved us but now we think we are special all on our own ) gobshite .


so THAT is the human condition talking about how bad it is? ...... do you want to swap with a Rabbit or a mouse ? then you would be free from that terrible millstone the human condition. do you think pain is only valid if you can express it ? Call it the mortal condition then at least you accept that it's common to all life but the Human condition Don't make me laugh .

The mortal condition?

Common to all life?

Right, because when a mouse loses a child it not only is faced with the present, but the ability to imagine the future, to envision everything that could have been. Every birthday that never will be, every laugh that will never come, every smile, every moment of shared happiness.
Tell me, when a mouse is starved how far in the future does it picture starving? Does it look at the mice around it and picture them starving? Does it look at its children and imagine the agony and pain they must be going through?
When a mouse is hunted, does it picture the acts awaiting it? Does it wonder how long it must endure? Does it ever feel the need to rise up against its oppressors? Does a mouse ever yearn for freedom from its intangible cage?

Tell me, where else in the Animal Kingdom can we find North Korea?
Tell me, what other animal on Earth has seen our planet from the outside?


Name me a single, other species capable of looking at what is, and seeing what should be? Name me just one species capable of taking its future in to its own hands.

I can draw useful perceptions from both these posts, I don't think they are diametrically opposed at all...

For humans in the western world now, for much of the time life is not an unrelenting struggle, and we do have the luxury of discussing and relecting on the human condition... But just because it's a luxury, it doesn't mean it is a pointless waste of time. Those struggling in third world conditions may not philosophise about it, but they still are immersed in the knowledge of mortality, the unconscious pressures on our cognition written in our hominid genetic heritage and the necessity to deal with ones tribe...

The pain and suffering of animals is not lessened by their inability to agonise over it, but the pain and suffering of being human can be magnified by the burden of consciousness, as TMH observed... A burden that also allows us to model the very universe we exist in, and move outwards to a "pale blue dot" moment...

[hiyymer]

The pain and suffering of animals is not lessened by their inability to agonise over it, but the pain and suffering of being human can be magnified by the burden of consciousness, as TMH observed... A burden that also allows us to model the very universe we exist in, and move outwards to a "pale blue dot" moment...

The Genesis story of the garden is a wonderful parable of the big brain when taken in the original Jewish meaning without the Christian overlay of original sin (there is no concept of original sin in Judaism). Not only do we have the knowledge of good and evil prevented from accessing the tree of life, but there is a wonderful natural awareness of the human species. Painful childbirth, sweating, agricultural civilization all unique human characteristics occasioned by the demands of the big brain and the emergence of a uniquely human consciousness. It's all been said before.

[JOZeldenrust]

Why is that the "human" condition? Wouldn't it be true of any species?

What other species is known for wanting more than it can ever get?

No. Wait. Don't bother. I have already read many of your posts. I need a break.

Specieist...

Pretty much any species will overindulge if a normally limited and valued resource suddenly becomes abundant.

To me at least it seems apparent that any difference between humans and other species is a difference of degree, not of category.

But the human species can symbolically construct alternatives that don't exist. It's an adaptive strategy that doesn't exist in other species except as latent capacities.

First, how do you know? Second, if it is present as a latent capacity, isn't it just a less developed characteristic, not a fundamental difference?

We don't adapt to our environment.

Yes, we do. By comparison, the speed at which we adapt to our environment is much slower then the speed at which we change our environment (at least by any reasonable method of measuring and comparing such speeds).

We create our own. If nature offers it's bounty, other animals will partake because it just is what it is. We will conceive of ways to create our own bounty. Hey if we got torches and drove the antelope over the cliff at night and then smoked the meat, we'd eat like kings all winter. Hey what if the antelope don't come back next year. Hey what if we pray to the antelope God. He what if we try to be better than we are. Etc etc etc.

So we are better at abstract thought then any other species. Doesn't mean other species are catergorically incapable of abstract thought.

"The human condition" is just a pretentious way of saying we think a bit more then other species. Big fucking deal.

[Trolldor]

Yes, it is a big fucking deal. That 'little bit' is the difference between using a rock to break open a nut and inventing the necessary equipment to stand on the surface of another planet.

[amused]

We have self awareness.

That makes each of us individually responsible for the events and outcome of our own life.

There are massive industries in place that include religion, politics, sports, and celebrity that pander to our weakness to avoid that responsibility.

[JOZeldenrust]

We have self awareness.

That makes each of us individually responsible for the events and outcome of our own life.

There are massive industries in place that include religion, politics, sports, and celebrity that pander to our weakness to avoid that responsibility.

Other species are self-aware as well. Even Jackdaws are capable of recognizing their own reflection. Humans are only special from a human perspective.

[JimC]

We have self awareness.

That makes each of us individually responsible for the events and outcome of our own life.

There are massive industries in place that include religion, politics, sports, and celebrity that pander to our weakness to avoid that responsibility.

Other species are self-aware as well. Even Jackdaws are capable of recognizing their own reflection. Humans are only special from a human perspective.

It depends what you mean by special. If you mean "worthy of ethical consideration & protection" etc., then I agree with you totally. I also agree that self-awareness in the sense you used has been demonstrated in many animals.

However, the nature of human cognition still represents a profound leap from animal cognition (Note that the leap does not imply virtue in any sense of the word). Our ability to build internal models of reality, and reflect on them using symbolic language, and then consciously design and build complex tools based on that internal reflection has no true parallel in tyhe animal world.

[hadespussercats]

In simplest terms, I'd say "human condition" refers to our lot in life-- what we, as humans (no offense to any non-human forum members), have to work with, or work through.

[Trolldor]

We have self awareness.

That makes each of us individually responsible for the events and outcome of our own life.

There are massive industries in place that include religion, politics, sports, and celebrity that pander to our weakness to avoid that responsibility.

Other species are self-aware as well. Even Jackdaws are capable of recognizing their own reflection. Humans are only special from a human perspective.

Well, the extended period of infancy, and the ability to learn that comes with it, and to recognise complex patterns and forumlas, to imagine. Those are pretty special human traits.
But no, don't let us get in the way of your defeatist attitudes.

[JimC]

We have self awareness.

That makes each of us individually responsible for the events and outcome of our own life.

There are massive industries in place that include religion, politics, sports, and celebrity that pander to our weakness to avoid that responsibility.

Other species are self-aware as well. Even Jackdaws are capable of recognizing their own reflection. Humans are only special from a human perspective.

Well, the extended period of infancy, and the ability to learn that comes with it, and to recognise complex patterns and forumlas, to imagine. Those are pretty special human traits.
But no, don't let us get in the way of your defeatist attitudes.

Well, he is towards one end of a spectrum of views concerning the comparison of human and animal cognition, and somewhat distant from my own position but it is pointlessly emotive to describe his position as defeatist. Topics such as this invite a constellation of views, as they should...

[Trolldor]

Well, yes it invites a constellation of views, just as those views are free to be criticised.
But to resign humanity to being 'just another animal' ignores so much of what sets us apart. We had no wings, so we created them. We saw what nature had brought about and we did more than adapt, we manipulated it to our own design. We no longer have to be victims of chance and circumstance.