What would a true communist society/country look like?

[Trolldor]

Actually, it is that simple. Completely fucked up finance meant an inability to meet the needs of the population, which makes the more susceptible to the realities of the free west.

Watched a documentary on Russian Spies, amazed at how many defected simply on the basis that life was better elsewhere.

[sandinista]

actually, it wasn't that simple.

[Toontown]

I find it curious that on the one hand we are told that the Soviet Union wasn't "really" communism, but then those same folks defend Soviet Communism as in reality good (and only painted bad by the evil western Enlightenment liberal nations).

It wasn't "really" communism, but it was close enough to earn the undying love and admiration of the "true" commies.

The Russians tried so hard to make it work. They laboriously killed mountains of people, laboriously maintained numerous gulags, laboriously tried their best to spread communism around the world, laboriously fought a quarter-century cold war...they wanted so very much to establish a worldwide Workers Paradise...but those evil capitalists wouldn't let them. No wonder the Russians consumed oceans of vodka and then collapsed. That was so hard. And those evil capitalists were so mean. Wouldn't even let the noble Russians take over the world, when they obviously had a better idea.

No, the Russians weren't "true" commies, but they were the one and only "proto" commies. Monuments should be built to every one of them. And by golly, that's what they'll do, when the "true" commies take over.

It will be like Easter Island.

[Coito ergo sum]

I find it curious that on the one hand we are told that the Soviet Union wasn't "really" communism, but then those same folks defend Soviet Communism as in reality good (and only painted bad by the evil western Enlightenment liberal nations).

Firstly, nobody is denying they had problems.

Some deny they were really communism.

And secondly, why do you find it curious?

Because it seems incongruous.

The two things are far from mutually exclusive, so anybody who wasn't completely single minded would be looking at both points of view.

The hard part is figuring out what you folks championing the merits of communism's point of view really is.

Mmm.. I do love a cup of communist coffee.

I prefer coffee made by individuals and groups with an incentive to make better coffee to outsell other coffee makers. I like Caribou over Starbucks, but that's just me.

Edit: Oooh it's my 666th post as well! Commies are all devil worshippers, right?

Not that I'm aware of.

[RuleBritannia]

I prefer coffee made by individuals and groups with an incentive to make better coffee to outsell other coffee makers. I like Caribou over Starbucks, but that's just me.

Caribou and Starbucks don't make coffee they just add water to it. Coffee is made by third world farmers whose only incetive to make better coffee is so they're not dead next week.

[Coito ergo sum]

I prefer coffee made by individuals and groups with an incentive to make better coffee to outsell other coffee makers. I like Caribou over Starbucks, but that's just me.

Caribou and Starbucks don't make coffee they just add water to it.

They taste different, and Caribou sells better tasting coffee.

Coffee is made by third world farmers whose only incetive to make better coffee is so they're not dead next week.

Actually, they sell the coffee to make money.

[PsychoSerenity]

The hard part is figuring out what you folks championing the merits of communism's point of view really is.

Well my view is that the concepts of communism have had an important and mostly positive influence on modern social theories, and that there's no point in poo-pooing it, in a capitalist vs communist way, because that'll never get anywhere, as we've seen in this thread.

But it's fairly obvious to most of us, that social equality and cooperation are beneficial. When you tried to argue the opposite, you attempted to back up your argument with certain real world examples:

Communism worsens everyone's lot.

What on earth are you basing this on?!

One, every place communism has yet been tried.

There has never been a real world, fair comparison, of communism and capitalism.

LOL - there we go again - the argument that I used to start this thread. You say we haven't seen a "real world fair comparison of communism and capitalism." Really? O.k., then what is the real communism like?

...which, as you pointed out, takes us back to your original problem.

But surly you can see that those examples are not a fair test?

If you had another identical America, and you could run through it's entire history again with communism, and repeat the entire test several times then you would be getting a fair test. Otherwise the differences in culture, geography, international relations, etc. cause far too much interference to draw any conclusions from it whatsoever.

However there are much fairer tests that have been done. Take for example, the one in this thread. And unsurprisingly it shows that equality is beneficial.

[RuleBritannia]

Coffee is made by third world farmers whose only incetive to make better coffee is so they're not dead next week.

Actually, they sell the coffee to make money.

No, they sell coffee so they don't starve to death, money is just the method of exchange. The "just add water" chains make all the profit. The farmers, truck drivers and shop staff do all the work.

[sandinista]

Coffee is made by third world farmers whose only incetive to make better coffee is so they're not dead next week.

Actually, they sell the coffee to make money.

No, they sell coffee so they don't starve to death, money is just the method of exchange. The "just add water" chains make all the profit. The farmers, truck drivers and shop staff do all the work.

but remember, you're talking to a person who thinks humans are not exploited and that everyone simply chooses the jobs they want and that one countries wealth does not have an effect on anthers poverty.

[LaMont Cranston]

Psychoserenity, From what I can tell, nobody, including Coito, myself or anybody else you can name, is asserting that social equality and cooperation are not good things. And nobody is maintaining that exploitation does not exist in the world. What we are saying is that you have not demonstrated...and neither has history...that there is greater equality and cooperation or less exploitation under so-called communist based systems than there is under so-called democratically based capitalist systems. It's one thing for wannabe coffee house intellectuals to sit around and carry on about the evils of capitalism, but the reality of it is is that communism doesn't work. Get over it!

As for supporting our arguments with real world examples...how dare we do that? No, I think it's much better to come up with imaginary examples, like imagining what the world would be like if we could only turn the clock back to 1776 and pretend that the American Revolution never happened. Yes, the world would be a totally different place if what happened didn't happen. It would be different because it didn't happen, and something else happened instead. Yeah, it works much better to imagine those things rather than dealing with the real world the way it actually exists.

PS: Since we're talking about coffee, let me put in a good word for Peet's Coffee which started in Berkeley in 1965. The people at Starbuck's learned the coffee business from Austin Peet, and their goal was to conquer the world with their version of coffee. Mr. Peet's goal was to keep his business relatively small and controllable so that he could keep the quality of his product high. Peet's coffee continues to kick ass over Starbuck's and all of the other pretenders.

[Coito ergo sum]

Coffee is made by third world farmers whose only incetive to make better coffee is so they're not dead next week.

Actually, they sell the coffee to make money.

No, they sell coffee so they don't starve to death, money is just the method of exchange. The "just add water" chains make all the profit. The farmers, truck drivers and shop staff do all the work.

but remember, you're talking to a person who thinks humans are not exploited

You'll need to refrain from lying. I at no time, ever, stated or implied that I think humans are not exploited. In fact, I stated precisely the opposite.

and that everyone simply chooses the jobs they want and that one countries wealth does not have an effect on anthers poverty.

I, also, never said that everyone simply chooses the jobs they want, or that countries don't effect each other.

It's better to discuss an issue than to make shit up.

[sandinista]

really fucking hell man, guess I've misunderstood you for, what 14 pages.

So, you do believe that capitalism exploits people, that in a capitalist society people are not simply free to choose a profession, and that the Wests wealth comes at the expense of other countries poverty? What have we been arguing about then?

[Coito ergo sum]

really fucking hell man, guess I've misunderstood you for, what 14 pages.

Do I need to go back to where you first brought up "exploitation?" You obviously just stick with whatever preconceived notions you have and are unable to shake them regardless of what people actually write.

So, you do believe that capitalism exploits people,

Not always, but sometimes. Exploit is not a clear term, though. I've asked you before, after I provided my definition, for you to clarify what you mean by it. You appear to think that anything done in a capitalist system is "exploitation."

that in a capitalist society people are not simply free to choose a profession,

Those aren't mutually exclusive concepts. People are free to choose what they would like to do with their lives, and sometimes some people are exploited too.

and that the Wests wealth comes at the expense of other countries poverty?

Some of it does, like when Great Britain, France, Holland, Spain and Portugal raped the world, taking colonies and literally stealing their wealth. You know, like when the Spanish showed up in Mexico and murdered people and loaded up the ships with gold. Clearly, doing that raises one country's wealth and reduces another country's wealth. Another example is the Soviet invasions and thefts of Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Afghanistan, and some others. There are other examples.

What have we been arguing about then?

What communism is, and why you hold on to some ridiculous notion that it is some sort of improvement.

[LaMont Cranston]

sandinista, Dude, nobody has said that exploitation does not exist in the world. It does. Yes, you have misunderstood Coito and others for 14 pages and counting. We can add that to the long list of things you apparently do not understand.

By the way, since you are so concerned about exploitation and the other inequities of the world, have you given up drinking coffee? How about all of the other products that are available because, at some point in the economic process, exploitation exists?

[sandinista]

dude. I only drink communist coffee...mud mixed with lake water.