Attitudes towards the police
Re: Attitudes towards the police
Yes, there's a failure Meeky, but it extends beyond the police force then.
It's never just "the police" who are at fault. What about all those fat asses who sit in lofty chairs making laws about what does and does not constitute 'hate speech'? I suppose none of them thought it might be a good idea to, for example, extend the statute of limitations?
It's never just "the police" who are at fault. What about all those fat asses who sit in lofty chairs making laws about what does and does not constitute 'hate speech'? I suppose none of them thought it might be a good idea to, for example, extend the statute of limitations?
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Re: Attitudes towards the police
Which law was made that enabled a policeman to murder Ian Tomlinson? No law at all. It was corruption in the police. The fact that he got away with it was due to the fact that the police closed ranks and refused to give up their own.The Mad Hatter wrote:Yes, there's a failure Meeky, but it extends beyond the police force then.
It's never just "the police" who are at fault. What about all those fat asses who sit in lofty chairs making laws about what does and does not constitute 'hate speech'? I suppose none of them thought it might be a good idea to, for example, extend the statute of limitations?
Watch the video and tell me if you think he didn't do it.
Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.
Things Rum has diagnosed me with to date: "personality disorder", autism, Aspergers.Rum wrote:Did I leave out being a twat? (With ref to your sig)
eRvin wrote:People can see what a fucking freak you are. Have you not noticed all the disparaging comments you get?
rum wrote:What a cunt you are. Truly.
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Re: Attitudes towards the police
Is there a any organization trying to get more accountability on the part of the police in the UK? How much public support do they have?The Mad Hatter wrote:Yes, there's a failure Meeky, but it extends beyond the police force then.
It's never just "the police" who are at fault. What about all those fat asses who sit in lofty chairs making laws about what does and does not constitute 'hate speech'? I suppose none of them thought it might be a good idea to, for example, extend the statute of limitations?
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Attitudes towards the police
I don't know about the UK, I don't know what organisations there are, but it would make me more than surprised to hear that they're being listened to by legislators.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."
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Re: Attitudes towards the police
I'm not the sort of person to fly off the handle in the same way as your post suggests you might. I have been suspected of (major) criminality in the past, but I find that reasonable behaviour on my part has always led to reasonable behaviour on the part of the police. I'm only speaking from personal experience and perceptions as is everyone else here. Mine are different from yours is all.Meekychuppet wrote:Is it really? Since resisting arrest is against the law? Really? Is it honestly? If I am arrested and asphyxiated on the police station floor as my friend's brother was, is that my fault too?Tigger wrote:Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.
REALLY?
Is it my fault if I get arrested? Or does a presumption of guilt in such circumstances seem fair to you?
Shall we say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' to the black kids in UK who are arrested, stop and searched, without due cause and because of their colour? Maybe you could say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' to my school-days best friend who, when he had a girlfriend who lived 15 miles away, was stopped and searched in his car 52 times in six months, despite having no convictions, never being caught doing anything wrong, and being told that it was because he wore a baseball cap. Only a reasonably well-off +, middle aged white guy could say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' without a hint of irony.
Your technique of harringing (me) with a load of (presumably rhetorical) questions, if carried over into the real world would, in my opinion, render you more liable to the irritation of the authorities than my more placid manner would.

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Re: Attitudes towards the police
No.Cunt wrote:When the police arrest someone for a fresh crime (as opposed to a breach of recognizance or somesuch), do you think they are all guilty? (careful, this may be a trick question)Tigger wrote:Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.

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Re: Attitudes towards the police
I'm not haranguing anyone, and I don't understand why you can't see the point. How placid can a person be reasonably expected to be when subjected to racial profiling, or outright harassment?Tigger wrote:I'm not the sort of person to fly off the handle in the same way as your post suggests you might. I have been suspected of (major) criminality in the past, but I find that reasonable behaviour on my part has always led to reasonable behaviour on the part of the police. I'm only speaking from personal experience and perceptions as is everyone else here. Mine are different from yours is all.Meekychuppet wrote:Is it really? Since resisting arrest is against the law? Really? Is it honestly? If I am arrested and asphyxiated on the police station floor as my friend's brother was, is that my fault too?Tigger wrote:Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.
REALLY?
Is it my fault if I get arrested? Or does a presumption of guilt in such circumstances seem fair to you?
Shall we say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' to the black kids in UK who are arrested, stop and searched, without due cause and because of their colour? Maybe you could say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' to my school-days best friend who, when he had a girlfriend who lived 15 miles away, was stopped and searched in his car 52 times in six months, despite having no convictions, never being caught doing anything wrong, and being told that it was because he wore a baseball cap. Only a reasonably well-off +, middle aged white guy could say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' without a hint of irony.
Your technique of harringing (me) with a load of (presumably rhetorical) questions, if carried over into the real world would, in my opinion, render you more liable to the irritation of the authorities than my more placid manner would.
Edit: when a person is arrested because they are black or some other profile then they have not had a chance to be placid or reasonable. How would being polite and reasonable help there?
Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.
Things Rum has diagnosed me with to date: "personality disorder", autism, Aspergers.Rum wrote:Did I leave out being a twat? (With ref to your sig)
eRvin wrote:People can see what a fucking freak you are. Have you not noticed all the disparaging comments you get?
rum wrote:What a cunt you are. Truly.
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Re: Attitudes towards the police
I didn't realise being black was an offence.Meekychuppet wrote:I'm not haranguing anyone, and I don't understand why you can't see the point. How placid can a person be reasonably expected to be when subjected to racial profiling, or outright harassment?Tigger wrote:I'm not the sort of person to fly off the handle in the same way as your post suggests you might. I have been suspected of (major) criminality in the past, but I find that reasonable behaviour on my part has always led to reasonable behaviour on the part of the police. I'm only speaking from personal experience and perceptions as is everyone else here. Mine are different from yours is all.Meekychuppet wrote:Is it really? Since resisting arrest is against the law? Really? Is it honestly? If I am arrested and asphyxiated on the police station floor as my friend's brother was, is that my fault too?Tigger wrote:Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.
REALLY?
Is it my fault if I get arrested? Or does a presumption of guilt in such circumstances seem fair to you?
Shall we say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' to the black kids in UK who are arrested, stop and searched, without due cause and because of their colour? Maybe you could say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' to my school-days best friend who, when he had a girlfriend who lived 15 miles away, was stopped and searched in his car 52 times in six months, despite having no convictions, never being caught doing anything wrong, and being told that it was because he wore a baseball cap. Only a reasonably well-off +, middle aged white guy could say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' without a hint of irony.
Your technique of harringing (me) with a load of (presumably rhetorical) questions, if carried over into the real world would, in my opinion, render you more liable to the irritation of the authorities than my more placid manner would.
Edit: when a person is arrested because they are black or some other profile then they have not had a chance to be placid or reasonable. How would being polite and reasonable help there?


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Re: Attitudes towards the police
Yes you are. And several other people including myself. It is consistent with your style of discussion where you jump from discourse, to argument to aggressive dismissal of any position which differs from your own. In addition you accuse people and make personal judgements about them based on their opinion.Meekychuppet wrote:
I'm not haranguing anyone, and I don't understand why you can't see the point. How placid can a person be reasonably expected to be when subjected to racial profiling, or outright harassment?
Edit: when a person is arrested because they are black or some other profile then they have not had a chance to be placid or reasonable. How would being polite and reasonable help there?
This has been raised a few times here and I would suggest you might reflect upon the fact that it has. I know of at least one other forum member (in addition to myself now) who won't engage in what one hopes would be reasonable discussion because of your manner.
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Re: Attitudes towards the police
Apparently the police don't either.Tigger wrote:I didn't realise being black was an offence.Meekychuppet wrote:I'm not haranguing anyone, and I don't understand why you can't see the point. How placid can a person be reasonably expected to be when subjected to racial profiling, or outright harassment?Tigger wrote:I'm not the sort of person to fly off the handle in the same way as your post suggests you might. I have been suspected of (major) criminality in the past, but I find that reasonable behaviour on my part has always led to reasonable behaviour on the part of the police. I'm only speaking from personal experience and perceptions as is everyone else here. Mine are different from yours is all.Meekychuppet wrote:Is it really? Since resisting arrest is against the law? Really? Is it honestly? If I am arrested and asphyxiated on the police station floor as my friend's brother was, is that my fault too?Tigger wrote:Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.
REALLY?
Is it my fault if I get arrested? Or does a presumption of guilt in such circumstances seem fair to you?
Shall we say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' to the black kids in UK who are arrested, stop and searched, without due cause and because of their colour? Maybe you could say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' to my school-days best friend who, when he had a girlfriend who lived 15 miles away, was stopped and searched in his car 52 times in six months, despite having no convictions, never being caught doing anything wrong, and being told that it was because he wore a baseball cap. Only a reasonably well-off +, middle aged white guy could say 'Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.' without a hint of irony.
Your technique of harringing (me) with a load of (presumably rhetorical) questions, if carried over into the real world would, in my opinion, render you more liable to the irritation of the authorities than my more placid manner would.
Edit: when a person is arrested because they are black or some other profile then they have not had a chance to be placid or reasonable. How would being polite and reasonable help there?
Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.
Things Rum has diagnosed me with to date: "personality disorder", autism, Aspergers.Rum wrote:Did I leave out being a twat? (With ref to your sig)
eRvin wrote:People can see what a fucking freak you are. Have you not noticed all the disparaging comments you get?
rum wrote:What a cunt you are. Truly.
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Re: Attitudes towards the police
Well firstly, we would need to know how many of those 1000 were suspicious deaths possibly involving police brutality, how many were through incompetence (not checking someone who dies by choking on his own vomit etc) and how many were clearly no one's fault...Meekychuppet wrote:
Yeah, except the police officer not only got away with murder, but also the inquiry was dragged out so that the statute of limitations expired, meaning that when the COPS ruled no murder trial would take place the family could not bring a case for common assault.
I repeat my previous statistic. In the UK 1000 people have died in police custody. Of those, zero prosecutions haver taken place as a result.
ZERO.
Don't tell me that the system has a few failures and that it can be fixed. It fucking stinks, and the police are untouchable.
In Australia there was a situation a few years back where there were very high numbers of Aboriginal deaths in custody. A Royal Commision was held, which examined the whole situation, found many systemic faults, police incompetence and some instances of police violence. It made recommendations, many of which were implemented, and the situation improved, with a substantial drop in the rate of deaths in custody. (Probably still a lot of room for improvenment still...)
This is an example of a rational process which, given the political will and some pushing from human rights campaigners, can actually make a situation better...
You imply the system in the UK is unfixable, and that the all powerful police are untouchable. You apparently have either given up, or are suggesting lashing out like the G20 anarchists. What was it the Bard said...?
"full of sound and fury, signifying nothing..."
Both the left and the right splutter, vent and curse, while the moderates quietly roll up their sleeves and achieve something...
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Re: Attitudes towards the police
Whatever the cause of deaths may be, 0 prosecutions is outrageous.JimC wrote:Well firstly, we would need to know how many of those 1000 were suspicious deaths possibly involving police brutality, how many were through incompetence (not checking someone who dies by choking on his own vomit etc) and how many were clearly no one's fault...
In Australia there was a situation a few years back where there were very high numbers of Aboriginal deaths in custody. A Royal Commision was held, which examined the whole situation, found many systemic faults, police incompetence and some instances of police violence. It made recommendations, many of which were implemented, and the situation improved, with a substantial drop in the rate of deaths in custody. (Probably still a lot of room for improvenment still...)
This is an example of a rational process which, given the political will and some pushing from human rights campaigners, can actually make a situation better...
You imply the system in the UK is unfixable, and that the all powerful police are untouchable. You apparently have either given up, or are suggesting lashing out like the G20 anarchists. What was it the Bard said...?
"full of sound and fury, signifying nothing..."
Both the left and the right splutter, vent and curse, while the moderates quietly roll up their sleeves and achieve something...
The given up/lashing out dichotomy is false. I'm not proposing a solution because the thread is about the distrust of the police, not how to solve it. I can't think of a more clear indicator that the police are untouchable than the fact that not a single one that has murdered a human being in their care has answered for it. That would seem to me to be the textbook definition of untouchable.
Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.
Things Rum has diagnosed me with to date: "personality disorder", autism, Aspergers.Rum wrote:Did I leave out being a twat? (With ref to your sig)
eRvin wrote:People can see what a fucking freak you are. Have you not noticed all the disparaging comments you get?
rum wrote:What a cunt you are. Truly.
Re: Attitudes towards the police
You know it used to be standard practice to use bank staff in kids homes, often drawn from those who worked in child prisons (which is EXACTLY what they are) and on occasion adult prisons. Now, just to be clear, some of these workers are among the most dedicated a person could wish to find but it's a trade that also attracts more than it's share of fruitloops (as is my own!), additionally, the effect of the nature of power a prison officer holds may well effect their behaviour (see Stanford prison experiment and google scholar it's plentiful off shoots). I heard first hand how the kids felt about this pool of staff, that they came all too often from a particular working background that wasn't what many parents would pick for their own munchkins. While it still happens, and can be the right choice, there is more awareness now, more care.
What I'm saying is no 'group', once formed as a 'group' can be assumed to be representative of the population, it will have it's own culture, there are reasons people self select to join, and the activity of that group will feed back into both attitudes and actions. For these reasons the Police need to show more care than most, and we need to be more watchful of them (along with any other group given high levels of power over other people, from teachers to carers). I cannot imagine a decent copper being unwilling to acknowledge their own trade is one that contains more than your average batshit nobsplat - unless they were so over run that they could not rationalise beyond their wish and belief in The Group.
That said, it would be and is unreasonable to expect no mistakes, and that includes employing the odd batshit nobsplat. The issue is how those errors are responded to, for example NOT allowing murder to go un-addressed and THAT should never be given to the police to do - where it is then whoever decides they can self govern is to blame.
As I said before, I think there is a long way to go but I also think things are at least better than they were - that's not going to mean alot to someone caught up in the fucked up part now, but it's still a numbers game. I don't think there are any workable means to stop trades with power attracting nutjobs, only to reduce the number getting in; nor can we (as far as I know) overcome totally the effect that groups and power has on individuals, but if we fail to support the decent people in such trades we'll lose their support - which quite frankly is about the best real chance to continue positive change.
What I'm saying is no 'group', once formed as a 'group' can be assumed to be representative of the population, it will have it's own culture, there are reasons people self select to join, and the activity of that group will feed back into both attitudes and actions. For these reasons the Police need to show more care than most, and we need to be more watchful of them (along with any other group given high levels of power over other people, from teachers to carers). I cannot imagine a decent copper being unwilling to acknowledge their own trade is one that contains more than your average batshit nobsplat - unless they were so over run that they could not rationalise beyond their wish and belief in The Group.
That said, it would be and is unreasonable to expect no mistakes, and that includes employing the odd batshit nobsplat. The issue is how those errors are responded to, for example NOT allowing murder to go un-addressed and THAT should never be given to the police to do - where it is then whoever decides they can self govern is to blame.
As I said before, I think there is a long way to go but I also think things are at least better than they were - that's not going to mean alot to someone caught up in the fucked up part now, but it's still a numbers game. I don't think there are any workable means to stop trades with power attracting nutjobs, only to reduce the number getting in; nor can we (as far as I know) overcome totally the effect that groups and power has on individuals, but if we fail to support the decent people in such trades we'll lose their support - which quite frankly is about the best real chance to continue positive change.
"Whatever it is, it spits and it goes 'WAAARGHHHHHHHH' - that's probably enough to suggest you shouldn't argue with it." Mousy.
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Re: Attitudes towards the police
And I'm not disagreeing there seems to be a serious problem in the UK currently with police accountability. But given that a problem is perceived, surely one starts to think of actions that might at least improve the situation. There must be organisations campaigning for change - if not, start one! Because otherwise, you are just impotently whinging, with a built in perspective that reform is impossible...Meekychuppet wrote:Whatever the cause of deaths may be, 0 prosecutions is outrageous.JimC wrote:Well firstly, we would need to know how many of those 1000 were suspicious deaths possibly involving police brutality, how many were through incompetence (not checking someone who dies by choking on his own vomit etc) and how many were clearly no one's fault...
In Australia there was a situation a few years back where there were very high numbers of Aboriginal deaths in custody. A Royal Commision was held, which examined the whole situation, found many systemic faults, police incompetence and some instances of police violence. It made recommendations, many of which were implemented, and the situation improved, with a substantial drop in the rate of deaths in custody. (Probably still a lot of room for improvenment still...)
This is an example of a rational process which, given the political will and some pushing from human rights campaigners, can actually make a situation better...
You imply the system in the UK is unfixable, and that the all powerful police are untouchable. You apparently have either given up, or are suggesting lashing out like the G20 anarchists. What was it the Bard said...?
"full of sound and fury, signifying nothing..."
Both the left and the right splutter, vent and curse, while the moderates quietly roll up their sleeves and achieve something...
The given up/lashing out dichotomy is false. I'm not proposing a solution because the thread is about the distrust of the police, not how to solve it. I can't think of a more clear indicator that the police are untouchable than the fact that not a single one that has murdered a human being in their care has answered for it. That would seem to me to be the textbook definition of untouchable.
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!
And my gin!
Re: Attitudes towards the police
What percentage, Tigger? Want to take a shot at a 'guilty:not-guilty' rate?Tigger wrote:No.Cunt wrote:When the police arrest someone for a fresh crime (as opposed to a breach of recognizance or somesuch), do you think they are all guilty? (careful, this may be a trick question)Tigger wrote:Don't get arrested, then. It's quite easy.
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Why not make a 'providing personal criticism of Meekychuppet' thread to do this in, and engage him here about attitudes toward the police?Rum wrote:
Yes you are. And several other people including myself. It is consistent with your style of discussion where you jump from discourse, to argument to aggressive dismissal of any position which differs from your own. In addition you accuse people and make personal judgements about them based on their opinion.
This has been raised a few times here and I would suggest you might reflect upon the fact that it has. I know of at least one other forum member (in addition to myself now) who won't engage in what one hopes would be reasonable discussion because of your manner.
Just a suggestion.
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