Do you hate Islam ?

[Trolldor]

The most 'moderate' muslims I have met - face to face - have been as vile as I expected them to be, or failed to observe their own faith.

It really is an all or nothing creed. Being polite doesn't mean that they don't think that you deserve the death penalty for apostasy, or that women dishonor themselves by not submitting to the subservience of men. It just means they keep it privately.

[Pappa]

Moderate Muslims...

It's an interesting concept, and I look forward to the day I meet one.

The muslims (admittedly small in number) I know personally are without exception the most courteous, mild mannered and civil minded people you could ever hope to meet, and one of them is actually an Imam.

I wholeheartedly go with JimC's suggestion that "a critical aspect is not alienating the broad mass of moderate muslims who, in the right circumstances, could follow the historic path of much of christianity, to a position accepting the seperation of church and state, and a slow but sure reduction of fanaticism." Christians, after all, where as murderous, cruel and intolerant as little as 200 years ago as extreme muslims are today, and they were very much in power. The last heretic was killed in 1826.

There is bugger-all difference between christian terrorism of yore and muslim terrorism today, and just as support for the former was not diminished by killing its pedestrian supporters, any support of terrorism of the latter will not cease with the application of violent oppression.

The vast majority of muslims I know are genuinely good people. I don't hate islam and I don't regard today's fundamentalist terrorism as a primarily religious issue, more about breaking world hegemony and power (using religion as an effective means of getting willing volunteers).

I would have to disagree at least in part, Pappa, from the bit that starts "I don't regard today's..."

I am well aware that their are multiple motivations for islamic terrorism against the west, and a perception at least of political/economic oppression is undoubtably a part of it. It is stretching political vocabulary to use the old marxist term "hegemony" as a valid descriptor, however...

Deep down, however, the true islamic fundamentalists mean exactly what they say, and what they say is firmly rooted in their unquestioning acceptance of a particularly vile form of religious delusion, one that glorifies the slaughter of unbelievers and demands absolute submission. They may be a minority of muslims, but the sharp, bright madness of their crazed devotion cuts through pluralistic values of tolerance like a razor through silk... And it is they that can play the emotional chords on the psyche of disturbed young men that turn them into suicide bombers...

I agree, but I think those delusional religious fundamentalist terrorists are merely pawns in a greater game, and thus the terrorism isn't really about religion.

As for hegemony.... it's valid outside a Marxist context. You hear it used a lot my political commentators on the US's dominance of world power struggles (both political and cultural).

[Trolldor]

Also, in response to Seraph's point about it being Xtianity -200 years.

I think the idea of 'the meek shall inherit the Earth' is a little different to simply claiming that Islam shall rule the Earth.

[JimC]

The most 'moderate' muslims I have met - face to face - have been as vile as I expected them to be, or failed to observe their own faith.

It really is an all or nothing creed. Being polite doesn't mean that they don't think that you deserve the death penalty for apostasy, or that women dishonor themselves by not submitting to the subservience of men. It just means they keep it privately.

It is an interesting point, and you may be right, although I think you are underestimating the slow, subtle corrosion of their values by the Aussie "fuck it all" attitude...

Even if you are right, the adoption of "polite" pseudo-agreement to tolerance is hopefully the thin end of the wedge.

Sincerely, I hope that the fundamentalist's true worry is correct - that prolonged contact with western society will corrupt a great number of ordinary muslims...

[JimC]

Also, in response to Seraph's point about it being Xtianity -200 years.

I think the idea of 'the meek shall inherit the Earth' is a little different to simply claiming that Islam shall rule the Earth.

His point was probably that old style Xtianity thought the meek needed a little extra help, such as the Spanish Inquisition...

[Trolldor]

I'd have to agree with you Jim, which is what I meant by the idea that Islam culture won't suddenly reach it's enlightenment by revelation. It's going to take time, and outside influence.

...and really, by that all I'm saying is what other people have already said, long before me.

His point was probably that old style Xtianity thought the meek needed a little extra help, such as the Spanish Inquisition...

The church controlled it's own followers through fear more than the outside world. Islam solved that problem.

[JimC]

Pappa wrote:

I agree, but I think those delusional religious fundamentalist terrorists are merely pawns in a greater game, and thus the terrorism isn't really about religion.

As for hegemony.... it's valid outside a Marxist context. You hear it used a lot my political commentators on the US's dominance of world power struggles (both political and cultural).

I suspect it is a moot point whether the leftist revolutionary element think the fundamentalists are "merely pawns in a greater game" or vice versa...

As for "hegemony", I suppose it is a subjective reaction. It's use always brings me back to the rigid terminology of the old left, a terminology I am very familiar with, but retreated from in a revolt against stultifying and predictable monomania...

[Hermit]

Also, in response to Seraph's point about it being Xtianity -200 years.

I think the idea of 'the meek shall inherit the Earth' is a little different to simply claiming that Islam shall rule the Earth.

Very different indeed, actually, but 'the meek shall inherit the Earth' is one of many bible quotes that was totally ignored by christians until about 200 years ago.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"the meeky shall inherit the Earth".


Fuck, when's the next bus to Mars!

[Trolldor]

Also, in response to Seraph's point about it being Xtianity -200 years.

I think the idea of 'the meek shall inherit the Earth' is a little different to simply claiming that Islam shall rule the Earth.

Very different indeed, actually, but 'the meek shall inherit the Earth' is one of many bible quotes that was totally ignored by christians until about 200 years ago.

lol.
k.

[Coito ergo sum]

Just wanted to reiterate...

I fucking hate Islam. It is a disgusting, foul, horrible religion, with no redeeming qualities of which I am aware. It brings misery to the world, oppresses the individual, crushes the human spirit, destroys liberty, and spreads complete and utter falsehoods.

Islam is a monstrosity. I hate it.

Yes, but with some provisos...

1. There is considerable variation in the strands of islam around the world. All are delusional, of course, but perhaps only a certain fundamentalist subset truly deserves the full weight of of your comment.

I disagree. The letter and spirit of the Qu'ran is abysmal, horrid, wretched and worthy of hardly anything besides contempt and derision. Even the moderate points of view of those who follow Islam are antiquated, oppressive, demeaning, insulting and if not racist then certainly ethnocentric and discriminatory.

2. Similarly, many muslims around the world follow there religion in a very casual manner. They would certainly style themselves muslim, but are quite like the "nominal christians" one finds almost anywhere... They are not a danger to the world...

If by "follow their religion in a very casual manner," you mean "don't follow their religion much," then yes. Those who don't practice a form of Islam in any more but a nominal sense are of less concern. Anyone, however, burying his face in the dirt 5 times a day to worship that thing described in the Qu'ran as Allah is, however, a danger to the world because they provide tacit support to the large enough number of violent extremists.

[Coito ergo sum]

Moderate Muslims...

It's an interesting concept, and I look forward to the day I meet one.

I have met many moderate Muslims, and when you have a serious conversation with them they tend to hold the position that the West is at fault and needs to change, not the Muslim countries. There is broad streak of anti-semitism (anti-Jew) among moderate Muslims, and quite a bit of sexism, misogyny and homophobia - to the point where those concepts appear to me to be the prevailing views.

[Rum]

I have watched this thread bob up the list and down over the days as if it is inviting me to respond!

So once and for all - YES! - I fucking hate it! It is possibly the worst religion of all - and they are all shit!

[Trolldor]

Moderate Muslims...

It's an interesting concept, and I look forward to the day I meet one.

I have met many moderate Muslims, and when you have a serious conversation with them they tend to hold the position that the West is at fault and needs to change, not the Muslim countries. There is broad streak of anti-semitism (anti-Jew) among moderate Muslims, and quite a bit of sexism, misogyny and homophobia - to the point where those concepts appear to me to be the prevailing views.

I don't classify them as moderate, merely polite.

[Coito ergo sum]

I've yet to see a Muslim admit that the violence in Islam is because of Islam, and for them to remain a Muslim.

You are describing christianity as it was up to 200 years ago. The bible has not changed. The cherry picking from it has.

Whether there is an equivalence between Islam of today and Christianity of some hundreds of years ago doesn't change the fact that Islam as currently practiced by the vast majority of practicing Muslims is a disgusting sess pit of hate, racism, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and superstition, and is a bane to mankind and giant anchor on human progress.