Do you hate Islam ?

[JimC]

Just wanted to reiterate...

I fucking hate Islam. It is a disgusting, foul, horrible religion, with no redeeming qualities of which I am aware. It brings misery to the world, oppresses the individual, crushes the human spirit, destroys liberty, and spreads complete and utter falsehoods.

Islam is a monstrosity. I hate it.

Yes, but with some provisos...

1. There is considerable variation in the strands of islam around the world. All are delusional, of course, but perhaps only a certain fundamentalist subset truly deserves the full weight of of your comment.

2. Similarly, many muslims around the world follow there religion in a very casual manner. They would certainly style themselves muslim, but are quite like the "nominal christians" one finds almost anywhere... They are not a danger to the world...

[charlou]

2. Similarly, many muslims around the world follow there religion in a very casual manner. They would certainly style themselves muslim, but are quite like the "nominal christians" one finds almost anywhere... They are not a danger to the world...

They're also too readily brought to faith/fear-based discipline by those with power and 'authority' among them, pointing to 'the law' in their holy book. Read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Infidel ...


The thread isn't about Muslims, who are all individuals with their own interpretations and practices ... it's about the foundation of their religious belief: Islam. Do you hate Islam? It's like asking Do you hate communism .. or sexism, or monarchy, or humanism ... etc ..

[Robert_S]

I think Quakers are fucktards.

Those Quakers once saved a person's life and, more importantly, kept me out of prison. I don't think anyone else could have talked me down that day.

[JimC]

Charlou wrote:

They're also too readily brought to faith/fear-based discipline by those with power and 'authority' among them, pointing to 'the law' in their holy book.

I'm sure that would be true for some, although others will give lip service then get on with their lives...

Western efforts to combat the dangerous and militant branches if islam need to concentrate on "those with power and 'authority' among them", the ones who encourage jihad even to the slightest degree. No mercy or human rights crap for those arseholes...

[Trolldor]

Not all Muslims are dangerous and violent.
But it just so happens that the best of them are largely secular.

The creed of Islam is vile, wretched reinvisioning of all the cruelty and hatred of the Jewish and Christian Dogmas.
But there is no enlightment amongst Islamic culture, no form of rederess for the sheer hatred and ignorance spilled forth from the open pages of that destructive and apocolyptic Koran.
If we wish to combat Islam, it will be only by force of arms, because it is a religion incapable of civilised discourse.

[JimC]

Not all Muslims are dangerous and violent.
But it just so happens that the best of them are largely secular.

The creed of Islam is vile, wretched reinvisioning of all the cruelty and hatred of the Jewish and Christian Dogmas.
But there is no enlightment amongst Islamic culture, no form of rederess for the sheer hatred and ignorance spilled forth from the open pages of that destructive and apocolyptic Koran.
If we wish to combat Islam, it will be only by force of arms, because it is a religion incapable of civilised discourse.

Certainly much of the creed is vile and cruel; probably a higher proportion than other religions.

And relatively little internal opposition from moderates to the fundamentalists who delight in the harshest aspects of their teaching.

However, your last sentence is too broad. The fundamentalists who wish to attack the west certainly need to be combatted, but not just with force of arms. Much of it involves western security and police services "boxing clever", with force of arms being applied rather more surgically than in the past. Too much of the west's reactions have been forms of warfare with dubious and compromised methods and aims, such as Iraq, causing (along with a less than even-handed approach to Israel) deep cynicism and a rise in militancy in the islamic world.

But a critical aspect is not alienating the broad mass of moderate muslims who, in the right circumstances, could follow the historic path of much of christianity, to a position accepting the seperation of church and state, and a slow but sure reduction of fanaticism.

[Trolldor]

Moderate Muslims...

It's an interesting concept, and I look forward to the day I meet one.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yes.

[Hermit]

Moderate Muslims...

It's an interesting concept, and I look forward to the day I meet one.

The muslims (admittedly small in number) I know personally are without exception the most courteous, mild mannered and civil minded people you could ever hope to meet, and one of them is actually an Imam.

I wholeheartedly go with JimC's suggestion that "a critical aspect is not alienating the broad mass of moderate muslims who, in the right circumstances, could follow the historic path of much of christianity, to a position accepting the seperation of church and state, and a slow but sure reduction of fanaticism." Christians, after all, where as murderous, cruel and intolerant as little as 200 years ago as extreme muslims are today, and they were very much in power. The last heretic was killed in 1826.

There is bugger-all difference between christian terrorism of yore and muslim terrorism today, and just as support for the former was not diminished by killing its pedestrian supporters, any support of terrorism of the latter will not cease with the application of violent oppression.

[Trolldor]

There are plenty of Muslim apologists, no doubt. Kind, courteous, civil, but they make excuses.
I've yet to see a Muslim admit that the violence in Islam is because of Islam, and for them to remain a Muslim.

[Hermit]

I've yet to see a Muslim admit that the violence in Islam is because of Islam, and for them to remain a Muslim.

You are describing christianity as it was up to 200 years ago. The bible has not changed. The cherry picking from it has.

[Trolldor]

If Islam is ever to change, it will not be from revelation.
And I agree on the main point that it will fall with the emancipation of the Islamic women.

[JimC]

I've yet to see a Muslim admit that the violence in Islam is because of Islam, and for them to remain a Muslim.

You are describing christianity as it was up to 200 years ago. The bible has not changed. The cherry picking from it has.

And christianity changed into its modern toothless tiger (mostly) form by the hard work and sacrifice of many unsung heroes of the enlightenment...

The main criticism I have of today's moderate muslims is their failure to stand up to their extremist brethren. I have read critiques of fundamentalist christianity by moderate christians...

[Pappa]

Moderate Muslims...

It's an interesting concept, and I look forward to the day I meet one.

The muslims (admittedly small in number) I know personally are without exception the most courteous, mild mannered and civil minded people you could ever hope to meet, and one of them is actually an Imam.

I wholeheartedly go with JimC's suggestion that "a critical aspect is not alienating the broad mass of moderate muslims who, in the right circumstances, could follow the historic path of much of christianity, to a position accepting the seperation of church and state, and a slow but sure reduction of fanaticism." Christians, after all, where as murderous, cruel and intolerant as little as 200 years ago as extreme muslims are today, and they were very much in power. The last heretic was killed in 1826.

There is bugger-all difference between christian terrorism of yore and muslim terrorism today, and just as support for the former was not diminished by killing its pedestrian supporters, any support of terrorism of the latter will not cease with the application of violent oppression.

The vast majority of muslims I know are genuinely good people. I don't hate islam and I don't regard today's fundamentalist terrorism as a primarily religious issue, more about breaking world hegemony and power (using religion as an effective means of getting willing volunteers).

[JimC]

Moderate Muslims...

It's an interesting concept, and I look forward to the day I meet one.

The muslims (admittedly small in number) I know personally are without exception the most courteous, mild mannered and civil minded people you could ever hope to meet, and one of them is actually an Imam.

I wholeheartedly go with JimC's suggestion that "a critical aspect is not alienating the broad mass of moderate muslims who, in the right circumstances, could follow the historic path of much of christianity, to a position accepting the seperation of church and state, and a slow but sure reduction of fanaticism." Christians, after all, where as murderous, cruel and intolerant as little as 200 years ago as extreme muslims are today, and they were very much in power. The last heretic was killed in 1826.

There is bugger-all difference between christian terrorism of yore and muslim terrorism today, and just as support for the former was not diminished by killing its pedestrian supporters, any support of terrorism of the latter will not cease with the application of violent oppression.

The vast majority of muslims I know are genuinely good people. I don't hate islam and I don't regard today's fundamentalist terrorism as a primarily religious issue, more about breaking world hegemony and power (using religion as an effective means of getting willing volunteers).

I would have to disagree at least in part, Pappa, from the bit that starts "I don't regard today's..."

I am well aware that their are multiple motivations for islamic terrorism against the west, and a perception at least of political/economic oppression is undoubtably a part of it. It is stretching political vocabulary to use the old marxist term "hegemony" as a valid descriptor, however...

Deep down, however, the true islamic fundamentalists mean exactly what they say, and what they say is firmly rooted in their unquestioning acceptance of a particularly vile form of religious delusion, one that glorifies the slaughter of unbelievers and demands absolute submission. They may be a minority of muslims, but the sharp, bright madness of their crazed devotion cuts through pluralistic values of tolerance like a razor through silk... And it is they that can play the emotional chords on the psyche of disturbed young men that turn them into suicide bombers...