People Who Hang Themselves

[LaMont Cranston]

hadespussercats, You said that you think this is a grim thread. I agree that this may not be the cheeriest subject to consider, but I also think that strong people are fully capable of dealing with strong and powerful subjects. Somebody once told me that if you are enthusiastic about life, you must be interested in death. There's a difference between rationally examining ideas and concepts, no matter how grim and/or controversial they might be and being fixated on them. From all that I can tell, this thread is about those people who want to participate in the discussion examining a rather emotionally-charged subject that has touched many of our lives.

Best wishes!

[Trolldor]

Hey, go fuck yourself!

A reminder to please...http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 9#playnice

[maiforpeace]

There's a difference between rationally examining ideas and concepts, no matter how grim and/or controversial they might be and being fixated on them. From all that I can tell, this thread is about those people who want to participate in the discussion examining a rather emotionally-charged subject that has touched many of our lives.

Indeed. If we are able to discuss this subject more openly, rationally and matter-of-factly we can learn more about it and might possibly find better ways to deal with it.

http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/whattodo.htm

Myth: “Talking about it may give someone the idea.” People already have the idea; suicide is constantly in the news media. If you ask a despairing person this question you are doing a good thing for them: you are showing him that you care about him, that you take him seriously, and that you are willing to let him share his pain with you. You are giving him further opportunity to discharge pent up and painful feelings. If the person is having thoughts of suicide, find out how far along his ideation has progressed.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think I would like to separate terminal patient euthanasia from unhappy suicides ,the reasons and the methods and the effects on loved ones are different .

If one were asked to assist in such an euthanasia one might have dreams about it for a long, long time after.

[maiforpeace]

I think I would like to separate terminal patient euthanasia from unhappy suicides ,the reasons and the methods and the effects on loved ones are different .

If one were asked to assist in such an euthanasia one might have dreams about it for a long, long time after.

A sobering thought.

My husband is one of the people who doesn't like to discuss this subject - I have brought it up a couple of times while writing my own health care directive but he hasn't been motivated to write his own and I still don't know what he would want done if he was terminally ill. I'm pretty hopeful that I will die before my husband since I am older, but you never know.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think I would like to separate terminal patient euthanasia from unhappy suicides ,the reasons and the methods and the effects on loved ones are different .

If one were asked to assist in such an euthanasia one might have dreams about it for a long, long time after.

A sobering thought.

My husband is one of the people who doesn't like to discuss this subject - I have brought it up a couple of times while writing my own health care directive but he hasn't been motivated to write his own and I still don't know what he would want done if he was terminally ill. I'm pretty hopeful that I will die before my husband since I am older, but you never know.

They might make you promise to go through with it despite anything they say "during". Then you might get left wondering if they really did change their minds at the last second.

[hiyymer]

My friend shot himself. His family had never dealt with his depression, and they didn't deal with his death. There is something unsettling about the fact that our body can turn against us in that way and make us feel like we want to end it. Sort of gets in the way of our illusion of being in control. Just concentrate on the stupid way they did it, and then it's easier.

[Cunt]

Cunt, I can't see why you attribute unbearable pain to everybody's motives.

Mainly because they couldn't bear it. If they killed themselves rather than experience more of it, what would you call it other than unbearable (to them)?

What you say might be true for a very small number of people. Of course I agree it happens, and you know very well I didn't belittle it. I'm just saying that the huge majority of suicides are more like what I described. Impulse decisions, often helped along by drink or drugs.

You call the 'huge majority' (that doesn't sound scientific) 'impulse decisions' or drunk/drugged decisions and say you aren't belittling?

Were you drunk when you wrote that post? On drugs? Was it just an impulse decision? Were those three questions 'belittling'?

I've seen enough people talking about failed attempts to know which is by far the most common cause. And lots of them laugh about the things and people that drove them to attempt it in the first place. It's not just me making this point, people who have gone through it often say the same thing. They find their reasons for trying suicide ridiculous, with hindsight.
.

And those who died stand behind their decisions. What's your point? That those who survive attempts say that they are happy? Not all of them are, mistermack. I am suggesting respecting both groups.

------------------

I think I would like to separate terminal patient euthanasia from unhappy suicides ,the reasons and the methods and the effects on loved ones are different .

If one were asked to assist in such an euthanasia one might have dreams about it for a long, long time after.

Ya. Even just standing near one can cause one to think it over a number of times.

------------------

[JimC]

My Grandma was told in her early 80's that she was going to go blind, irreversibly. That very night she took her own life by an overdose. She lived with us at the time. I was about 19, and at Uni; it really shook me up, I missed her a lot (she was a cantankarous character, but often took my side in arguments I had with Mum and Dad)

I am sorry she felt she needed to do that, but I think she had the right; also, it would have been easier and more effective with other methods (sleeping pill/painkiller overdoses are rather hit and miss...)

[mistermack]

Mainly because they couldn't bear it. If they killed themselves rather than experience more of it, what would you call it other than unbearable (to them)?

If you were talking about the mythical scorpion stinging itself to death, I would agree that the degree of pain is directly related to the suicide.
But humans are very different. We have a consciousness of self, and make intellectual decisions. And very often we make very bad decisions. You say suicide always = unbearable pain.
I say suicide very often = very bad decision.
You are denying humans that which makes us human. The ability to think.

As far as belittling goes, I said I don't belittle the people who kill themselves out of unbearable pain. I was referring to them, not the ones who make an impulsive decision, when drunk or drugged. And for motives they very often belittle themselves, if they survive it.
It's not belittling someone to say they make a bad decision.
It's just recognising the facts, opinions that they often express themselves at a later date.

And those who died stand behind their decisions.

I'm glad you can joke about it.

What's your point? That those who survive attempts say that they are happy? Not all of them are, mistermack. I am suggesting respecting both groups.

I spend most of my life neither happy or unhappy. I don't get your point. Sometimes you are happier than others. Kill yourself when you're unhappy, you miss out on everything from then on.
I don't get your point about respect. I neither respect nor disrespect total strangers. But if I hear about someone doing something dumb, am I supposed to respect that decision? Not me. But it doesn't matter one bit whether I respect it or not.
.

[Cunt]

Mainly because they couldn't bear it. If they killed themselves rather than experience more of it, what would you call it other than unbearable (to them)?

If you were talking about the mythical scorpion stinging itself to death, I would agree that the degree of pain is directly related to the suicide.
But humans are very different. We have a consciousness of self, and make intellectual decisions. And very often we make very bad decisions. You say suicide always = unbearable pain.
I say suicide very often = very bad decision.

This is a false dichotomy. There is no reason it can't be both.
Whether someone suicides slowly with cigarettes of fatty foods, or quickly with a gun, I think it can be a very bad decision which should STILL be respected.
You don't have to agree with it to respect it, by the way.

You are denying humans that which makes us human. The ability to think.

I don't see where I did that.

As far as belittling goes, I said I don't belittle the people who kill themselves out of unbearable pain. I was referring to them, not the ones who make an impulsive decision, when drunk or drugged. And for motives they very often belittle themselves, if they survive it.
It's not belittling someone to say they make a bad decision.

Is it belittling to suggest that you only posted this because you were drunk? What about saying it was a very bad decision you would belittle yourself for later?

Could you EVER respect someone's decision to off themselves? What if they said the reasons were not your business? Could you respect their decision then?

Now, what if they told you the reasons, but you disagreed with them? Could you respect their decision then?

And those who died stand behind their decisions.

I'm glad you can joke about it.

No joke. You are saying the ones who survive, by luck or by intervention, are saying that it was the right decision. I am simply pointing out that there is another perspective. Just as valuable, too.

What's your point? That those who survive attempts say that they are happy? Not all of them are, mistermack. I am suggesting respecting both groups.

I spend most of my life neither happy or unhappy. I don't get your point. Sometimes you are happier than others. Kill yourself when you're unhappy, you miss out on everything from then on.

That makes sense to me, but I wouldn't force it on someone else.
Would you?

I don't get your point about respect. I neither respect nor disrespect total strangers. But if I hear about someone doing something dumb, am I supposed to respect that decision? Not me. But it doesn't matter one bit whether I respect it or not.
.

What I am talking about when I say I respect their decisions, is that I don't say that the only reason they did it was because they were drunk and made bad decisions.
I know about a fellow here in my town, who got all fucked up on drugs and did himself in. Many said that he only made the decision because he was high. I think he may have done himself because the drug-people he fucked up with were going to damage he AND his family because of his fuckup.

He checked out, maybe, to protect them from the repercussions of his error.

It may not be true, there is really no way to know, but the spite of the drug dealers he fucked with stopped landing at his parents door.

I think he could have made several more sensible decisions, but I wouldn't bother trash-talking him now that he has decided. Some lament about how selfish and fucked up he was. I simply accept his decision as the right one for him. His family may not agree, but if my guess about the drug dealers is correct, they are getting the benefit of his decision.

I also respect your decision to keep writing sweeping generalizations about suicide and those who have survived suicide attempts. Even though every single one is an individual decision which may in fact be the right decision.

[mistermack]

I don't get how you think I'm the illogical or uncaring one here. The vast majority of the world's population thinks like I do. Most have specially trained officers who try to reason with suicidal people.
I think I would have a lot to say to a policeman who counselled my kid with stuff like you recommend. "You jump mate, I respect your decision. If you can't stand the pain, get it over with now. Do it now while you're sloshed, you might not have the nerve when you're sober."

You may think that the rest of the world is stupid, and you are right, but they pass laws and get to where they are by hundreds of years of experience, not theorising on forums. By the experience of people going and thanking police negotiators for talking them out of it. etc etc.

You keep on about respect, as if it matters. If you are stone cold in a drawer, in a morgue, it doesn't matter if people respect you or not. They could plaster your remains in silly makeup, and write the word idiot on your belly, it wouldn't affect you in the slightest, because you no longer exist. As far as I'm concerned, suicide is the dumbest, most selfish decision anybody can make, except for a tiny tiny few. So I'm never going to respect that decision. But SO WHAT? The people I belittle, ( as you put it ) or disrespect, do not exist. So who cares what I think?
.

[mistermack]

That makes sense to me, but I wouldn't force it on someone else.
Would you?

I certainly would, if I had the chance. They don't write "suicide while the balance of the mind was disturbed" on death certificates for no good reason. And there's one thing you've ignored. It's never too late for suicide. You always get another go. It's only too late if you're dead. So yes, I would certainly stop someone by force.
.

[FBM]

Wrt splitting the topic: Yes, this derail has strayed quite far afield. Cunt, if you start a thread and give it a title that relects the main idea you see developing, I'll split the relevant posts to it.

[Berthold]

They don't write "suicide while the balance of the mind was disturbed" on death certificates for no good reason.

One of the reasons being the tradition that victims of suicide were buried outside the graveyard. The Church "forgave" the act only when supposing that the person had been temporarily insane.