People Who Hang Themselves

[mistermack]

Will you then explain me, O fount of Wisdom, why my hatred of having my airways blocked or impaired in any way is what decided my putting hanging, strangulation, plastic bags and drowning in the 'unacceptable' category of methods I would consider using for suicide? (and being deeply depressive, I have thought about it a lot).

The unpleasantness of the method used for the act, and that does include pain, if it's not limited to it, is an integral part of the question.

How did you get my real name? I thought it was supposed to be confidential?
Anyway, I think it's a good thing that the methods are unacceptable. That's my message.
I wouldn't think that way if nearly all suicides were by people who have great pain and no future. But unfortunately, my opinions have been 'distorted' by real life.
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[Feck]

I think I would like to separate terminal patient euthanasia from unhappy suicides ,the reasons and the methods and the effects on loved ones are different .

[charlou]

^^ Yep.

[Cunt]

Keep pushing the example of people in horrendous pain if you like, but you're only fooling yourself. The proportion of suicides due to this is extremely small. And pain can be managed, far more effectively than death.

Would you consider depression an acceptably 'horrendous pain'? Or is that one reason for suicide which doesn't get your blessing?

See, I respect people who say that their depression is real pain. I happen to KNOW that all pain is in the mind, so be it cancer or be it depression, the pain is equally real.

When someone hurts enough to kill themselves, that pain is pain even if some people refuse to acknowledge it, such as you seem to.

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I think I would like to separate terminal patient euthanasia from unhappy suicides ,the reasons and the methods and the effects on loved ones are different .

Fuck the loved ones. If they were in as much pain, they might think less selfishly about suicides. The people 'left behind' might have a bit of suffering, but unless they also suicide, I would say that it is significantly less than what the person who suicided was suffering. (ask more if you like - I think it's fairly easy to back this up)

Terminal means something which is likely to kill you, isn't it? Does depression fit that bill for you? It sure as fuck kills lots of people. How about cancer? There are lots of unexpected remissions...should we force everyone to live as long as possible?

I think not. I think respecting someone's right to life means respecting their right to spend their life, even if I think they are spending it stupidly (such as dangerous sports, dedicating life to religion or other wasteful pursuits)

[mistermack]

Cunt, you are self-contradictory. You say that mental pain is just as bad as physical (agreed) but then you say fuck the loved ones, and their mental pain.
There's no logic there, except the logic of the self-obsessed.
I'm thinking about depression when I point out the pain of the relatives, and agreeing that mental pain can be awful.
That's why I put a lifetime of mental pain for the relatives ahead of a short period of physical pain for a suicide.
I'm just saying don't make it easy. That's all. It will go on happening, no doubt about that. A determined person will do it, just don't make it easy and painless, don't advertise it, and you might get fewer impulse suicides actually doing it.
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[Svartalf]

Keep pushing the example of people in horrendous pain if you like, but you're only fooling yourself. The proportion of suicides due to this is extremely small. And pain can be managed, far more effectively than death.

Would you consider depression an acceptably 'horrendous pain'? Or is that one reason for suicide which doesn't get your blessing?

See, I respect people who say that their depression is real pain. I happen to KNOW that all pain is in the mind, so be it cancer or be it depression, the pain is equally real.

When someone hurts enough to kill themselves, that pain is pain even if some people refuse to acknowledge it, such as you seem to.

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Terminal means something which is likely to kill you, isn't it? Does depression fit that bill for you? It sure as fuck kills lots of people. How about cancer? There are lots of unexpected remissions...should we force everyone to live as long as possible?

I think not. I think respecting someone's right to life means respecting their right to spend their life, even if I think they are spending it stupidly (such as dangerous sports, dedicating life to religion or other wasteful pursuits)

Depression makes the very act of livings horrendously painful, I can testify to it first hand.

I don't know that it's literally terminal or can be so, but there sure have been periods when I felt dead inside, and I'm not even speaking about the zombifying effects of some medication, but that's good because that way, you don't feel the pain, even if you know it's still there.

[Feck]

Keep pushing the example of people in horrendous pain if you like, but you're only fooling yourself. The proportion of suicides due to this is extremely small. And pain can be managed, far more effectively than death.

Would you consider depression an acceptably 'horrendous pain'? Or is that one reason for suicide which doesn't get your blessing?

See, I respect people who say that their depression is real pain. I happen to KNOW that all pain is in the mind, so be it cancer or be it depression, the pain is equally real.

When someone hurts enough to kill themselves, that pain is pain even if some people refuse to acknowledge it, such as you seem to.

--------

I think I would like to separate terminal patient euthanasia from unhappy suicides ,the reasons and the methods and the effects on loved ones are different .

Fuck the loved ones. If they were in as much pain, they might think less selfishly about suicides. The people 'left behind' might have a bit of suffering, but unless they also suicide, I would say that it is significantly less than what the person who suicided was suffering. (ask more if you like - I think it's fairly easy to back this up)

Terminal means something which is likely to kill you, isn't it? Does depression fit that bill for you? It sure as fuck kills lots of people. How about cancer? There are lots of unexpected remissions...should we force everyone to live as long as possible?

I think not. I think respecting someone's right to life means respecting their right to spend their life, even if I think they are spending it stupidly (such as dangerous sports, dedicating life to religion or other wasteful pursuits)

I agree with you I think that the right to die exists for depressed people too , I think that a lot less people agree with us on this point though .

[Cunt]

Cunt, you are self-contradictory. You say that mental pain is just as bad as physical

Actually, I said that they were equally real.

(agreed) but then you say fuck the loved ones, and their mental pain.

Perhaps I can clarify. If someone feels depressed (pain) and kills themselves, I would argue that they felt fully ALL the pain they could stand. If someone felt depressed (pain) and didn't die, I would suggest they felt somewhere within their ability to tolerate.
Those who suffer experiencing someone elses suicide are obviously feeling less pain than the fellow who offed himself. (everyone's pain tolerance is different, some will kill themselves over what might seem trivial to you, others might ignore that which you judge too painful to endure, but if someone does kill themselves, you can bet they were at their pain tolerance limit)

There's no logic there, except the logic of the self-obsessed.

I just explained my 'logic', but go on with your advocating for people who didn't feel bad enough to kill themselves, and I will go on advocating for those who experienced more pain than they could stand.

I'm thinking about depression when I point out the pain of the relatives, and agreeing that mental pain can be awful.
That's why I put a lifetime of mental pain for the relatives ahead of a short period of physical pain for a suicide.

No, you are sitting in judgement of people who tell the world, in the most serious way possible, that they can't go on through the pain.

I'm just saying don't make it easy. That's all. It will go on happening, no doubt about that. A determined person will do it, just don't make it easy and painless, don't advertise it, and you might get fewer impulse suicides actually doing it.
.

Should we make it tougher for everyone? Or just those you think should be forced to live?

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I think not. I think respecting someone's right to life means respecting their right to spend their life, even if I think they are spending it stupidly (such as dangerous sports, dedicating life to religion or other wasteful pursuits)

Depression makes the very act of livings horrendously painful, I can testify to it first hand.

Sorry that's true. I don't think the usual sympathetic platitudes are much help, so I will spare you.

I don't know that it's literally terminal or can be so, but there sure have been periods when I felt dead inside, and I'm not even speaking about the zombifying effects of some medication, but that's good because that way, you don't feel the pain, even if you know it's still there.

Holy fuck, you too?!

Ok, so you don't know that it's literally terminal...um...how about this:
It's been causing death for dozens of people (maybe more) each decade since...well...since it was recognized. Maybe even more than a decade.

That, to me, says terminal. Just because insurance companies find an 'out' by calling it 'suicide' and saying it isn't a 'natural' death doesn't convince me.

Trust me, it REALLY kills people. If you need proof, we first have to dig into if you consider suicide separate from other 'terminal' deaths.

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I agree with you I think that the right to die exists for depressed people too , I think that a lot less people agree with us on this point though .

I think it's critical to respect an individuals right to life (and death) if there is to be any help for them.

The right to die is available to everyone. No-one can ever take it away. If an individual decides to die...or even if they simply give up on trying to live, they are going to die pretty soon.

I have found that many people value self-determination, but only until it crosses their notion of 'right'. If someone wants to kill themselves, who has the right to stop them?

I'll give you a hint: in reality, that right belongs only to the smallest minority.

[mistermack]

Cunt, I suppose where I disagree with you most, is the notion that the people who kill themselves are the ones that are undergoing the most pain. That doesn't follow AT ALL!!
I think it doesn't really respect the people who bravely live on, enduring horrendous physical or mental pain.
The people who do kill themselves are often drunk, drugged up, or crazily trying to hurt someone, or just wallowing in self pity, combined with the others. There is no reason to say that they have any more pain than anyone else. They are generally just more impulsive.

You seem to have one example in your mind, and assume that all suicides are like that.

All I'm saying is we should try to cut down on the "impulse suicides" by whatever means we can. The really determined, or those who are in unbearable mental or physical pain, will always take care of themselves.

And about mental pain, that can sometimes change overnight, ( check out my post about my mother ) so suicide can be a BIG mistake.
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[Trolldor]

Hey, go fuck yourself!

[Cunt]

Cunt, I suppose where I disagree with you most, is the notion that the people who kill themselves are the ones that are undergoing the most pain. That doesn't follow AT ALL!!

For the individual who died, it was more than they could take (as evidenced by the seriousness of their plea)

I think it doesn't really respect the people who bravely live on, enduring horrendous physical or mental pain.

I disagree. Just as some of us can run faster than others, so can some of us endure more pain.
why is it so important to you to belittle what some people feel?
Too much is too much, even if you do disagree.

The people who do kill themselves are often drunk, drugged up, or crazily trying to hurt someone, or just wallowing in self pity, combined with the others. There is no reason to say that they have any more pain than anyone else. They are generally just more impulsive.

is this information from psychic contact ith the dead?

You seem to have one example in your mind, and assume that all suicides are like that.

No, but I think everyone deserves some respect.
even the ones I disagree with

[maiforpeace]

I think it doesn't really respect the people who bravely live on, enduring horrendous physical or mental pain.

You are assuming they are living on because they are brave. They may be fearful of death. They may be wanting to stick it to a relative by using up all the inheritance on health care.

But, again, why should these people live on enduring such pain because their loved ones can't deal with the fact that the person may die? I find that incredibly selfish of the loved ones. Death is a part of life and they will have to deal with it eventually. The one thing I own that belongs to me is my life. It's not up to anyone to tell me what I should do with it. Also, having a friend who has talked often of suicide, one of the reasons they give for wanting to commit suicide is that they don't want to put their loved ones through the pain of having to be around or live with someone who is in pain.

All I'm saying is we should try to cut down on the "impulse suicides" by whatever means we can. The really determined, or those who are in unbearable mental or physical pain, will always take care of themselves.

And about mental pain, that can sometimes change overnight, ( check out my post about my mother ) so suicide can be a BIG mistake.
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My understanding of one of your main objections, mistermack, is that you don't think methods to commit suicide should be readily available on the internet because it makes it easier for the "impulse" suicide to commit suicide.

I don't think these drunk, drugged or impulsive people that you are referring to are likely to go looking around on the internet for the more complicated suicide methods, and would guess the more sophisticated, painless ways to kill yourself probably involve some kind of drug or some other means that isn't readily available. They are probably going to resort to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Suicide_methods

The leading method of suicide varies dramatically between countries. The leading methods in different regions include hanging, pesticide poisoning, and firearms.[37] Worldwide 30% of suicides are from pesticides. The use of this method however varies markedly from 4% in Europe to more than 50% in the Pacific region.[38] In the United States 52% of suicides involve the use of firearms.[39] Asphyxiation and poisoning are fairly common as well. Together they comprised about 40% of U.S. suicides. Other methods of suicide include blunt force trauma (jumping from a building or bridge, self-defenestrating, stepping in front of a train, or car collision, for example). Exsanguination or bloodletting (slitting one's wrist or throat), intentional drowning, self-immolation, electrocution, and intentional starvation are other suicide methods. Individuals may also intentionally provoke another person into administering lethal action against them, as in suicide by cop.

[mistermack]

Cunt, I can't see why you attribute unbearable pain to everybody's motives.

What you say might be true for a very small number of people. Of course I agree it happens, and you know very well I didn't belittle it. I'm just saying that the huge majority of suicides are more like what I described. Impulse decisions, often helped along by drink or drugs.

I've seen enough people talking about failed attempts to know which is by far the most common cause. And lots of them laugh about the things and people that drove them to attempt it in the first place. It's not just me making this point, people who have gone through it often say the same thing. They find their reasons for trying suicide ridiculous, with hindsight.
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[Feck]

Cunt, I can't see why you attribute unbearable pain to everybody's motives.

What you say might be true for a very small number of people. Of course I agree it happens, and you know very well I didn't belittle it. I'm just saying that the huge majority of suicides are more like what I described. Impulse decisions, often helped along by drink or drugs.

I've seen enough people talking about failed attempts to know which is by far the most common cause. And lots of them laugh about the things and people that drove them to attempt it in the first place. It's not just me making this point, people who have gone through it often say the same thing. They find their reasons for trying suicide ridiculous, with hindsight.


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And a lot of people make multiple attempts and because they are found and stopped ..on suicide watch etc have to got to go for 'unpleasant' methods

[maiforpeace]

Hey, go fuck yourself!

A reminder to please...http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 9#playnice