Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by charlou » Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:05 am

Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
Seraph wrote:Nietzsche gave christianity a good kick in the balls. That does not make him the most important philosopher.
Misrepresentation of the work of Friedrich Nietzsche. He did not 'merely' give Christianity a 'good' kick in the balls. He provided a completely new and devastating critique of Christianity that serves as a model for a new style of criticism, next a long list of other accomplishments.
I don't see any misrepresentation there. You've just elaborated on how Seraph described it.

Putting 'merely' in quotes like that is a bit of a misrepresentation, btw.
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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:42 am

NoFreeWill wrote:
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote: There were obvious conceptual and philosophical problems with free will. LONG before neuroscience was even conceived possible.
I agree with you there. But there are many famous philosophers still around today in government tenured positions still asserting the existence of free will. :roll:
Famous, huh..
At least she provided for herself and never relied on state support.
What does that have to do with anything? Are you saying I rely on 'state support'? :lol: There are very few intimates of my financial situation and from whence I finance my well-living and believe me - you are not one of them..
:lol: Yeah, bub. I think you should take another look at what Rand is propagating. Freedom is in the words, not in the philosophy. If you wish to argue that she inconsistently argues for freedom - sure. Rand's freedom is the freedom of the wealthy to exploit the poor. That's what she propagates in regards to the Middle-East as well.
There will always be niches for the small guys to fill, so if the poor feel that they are being exploited they can always walk away, in a free society at least.[/quote]

Yeah, I suppose the people of the Arabic world could just take their freedom by leaving the oil fields and let us exploit them. What admirable freedom Rand grants them! :lol:

[qutoe]
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:You may have heard of another fan of hers, Alan Greenspan. That nitwit, like many other nitwits in American politics and economics, actually believed that twits' writing had anything to do with reality.
Greenspan gave up Objectivism.
Yeah, quite publically, after he had demolished the economy by following Rand's teachings. Amusing, because he is actually far more knowledgeable and intelligent than Rand..
Greenspan acknowledged that he needed to make compromises while chairman of the Fed.[/quote]

Let's be grateful for that, then, huh? You may not have noticed the financial and economic crisis his idiocy and that idiotic philosophy got us in. The rest of the world has.
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
Ayn Rand would never have endorsed what Greenspan did. I suggest you spend 5 years working in a government department, then another 5 years trying to run your own business. I think you would then find her ideas somewhat more appealing.
You want to be pedantic? Go play that somewhere else. I'm polite, to a point. I'll burn you to a crisp, bub.
How is that being pedantic? Do you deny that getting 10 years of real world experience will change your opinions?
You know nothing about my experiences, or what they have to do with my ideas pertaining to Rand or otherwise. Yes, you are being pedantic, and my patience is just about run out. If you wish to add feigned innocence to that list, I really don't know what you are expecting of me. You realise that you are coming into a rather serious thread about Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy, spouting Rand and politics and that sofar I have taken you pretty seriously? A more adequate response would have been to set the dogs on you or, failing that, to point and laugh at you and chase you out of the village like some scallywag. If all you are going to do is try my patience by insinuating my lack of sympathy for that dreadful Caucasian whore is due to a lack of experience with entrepreneurial or government business on my part, well, I'm really not going to think of you much higher because of that.
Libertarianism is a broad church. There are Christian fundamentalist libertarians and left-libertarians etc.
Ayn Rand was uncompromising individual, she didn't have much time for those that disagreed with her, that's why she created her own personal philosophy called Objectivism. That was her choice. That does not stop libertarians admiring Ayn Rand's work.
Don't expect me to be impressed by those who 'admire' those who despise them. I don't even like Christ - let alone his half-baked followers.
Charlou wrote:
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
Seraph wrote:Nietzsche gave christianity a good kick in the balls. That does not make him the most important philosopher.
Misrepresentation of the work of Friedrich Nietzsche. He did not 'merely' give Christianity a 'good' kick in the balls. He provided a completely new and devastating critique of Christianity that serves as a model for a new style of criticism, next a long list of other accomplishments.
I don't see any misrepresentation there. You've just elaborated on how Seraph described it.
No, you do not understand how the two things are different and vary in importance. Aggrandising your ignorance and inability to recognise splendour is bad business. A little humility might light your way.
Putting 'merely' in quotes like that is a bit of a misrepresentation, btw.
Who cares? At least my post wasn't boring like yours was..
The original arrogant bastard.
Quod tanto impendio absconditur etiam solummodo demonstrare destruere est - Tertullian

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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by charlou » Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:57 am

Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
Charlou wrote:
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
Seraph wrote:Nietzsche gave christianity a good kick in the balls. That does not make him the most important philosopher.
Misrepresentation of the work of Friedrich Nietzsche. He did not 'merely' give Christianity a 'good' kick in the balls. He provided a completely new and devastating critique of Christianity that serves as a model for a new style of criticism, next a long list of other accomplishments.
I don't see any misrepresentation there. You've just elaborated on how Seraph described it.
No, you do not understand how the two things are different and vary in importance. Aggrandising your ignorance and inability to recognise splendour is bad business. A little humility might light your way.
Putting 'merely' in quotes like that is a bit of a misrepresentation, btw.
Who cares? At least my post wasn't boring like yours was..
:lol: I'll take your advice about humility with a grain of salt. :mrgreen:
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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by Trolldor » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:44 am

Is the Choreography done? Being a one man cheer squad can't be easy work.
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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by A Monkey Shaved » Mon May 10, 2010 6:36 am

Nietzsche subscribed to some concept the "eternal return" which I found to be rather appealing as it is the vast time intervals of non-existence we are totally ignorant of such as the 13.7 billion years of time that elapsed between the big bang and our birth. I just thought maybe - but I can never at all be certain - that one's life is like a scratched record where you experience the same life over and over again as it is not possible to be consciously aware of the vast chasms on non existence after death and before birth. Unfortunately I do feel however that Nietzsche could be misconstrued as one of the masters of woo because he has opened up many other weird beliefs in various versions of reincarnation, especially with the demise of traditional Christian concepts of heaven and hell, which is just as wooish and any belief in hippy new age mysticism it is only that that woo has been around 19 hundred years longer.
Just because more people believe Jesus is the son of God and not the son of Satan does not make it any truer.

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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Mon May 10, 2010 6:48 am

The point being that the idea is not intended to be taken as a metaphysical or even physical theory or hypothesis, but rather as an idea in regards to life.. a koan, if you will.
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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by Animavore » Mon May 10, 2010 3:07 pm

Yeah I never read the eternal occurrence as living the same life again and again. I thought it was more like the same types of people again and again (like there would be another Nietzsche in another time and another you (though not Neitzsche or yourself)) in the same ratio to one another. This seems quite reasonable and even probabilistic.
I have read someone, in an introduction on one of the books of his, describe it that way (can't remember now). That was the last time I ever read an introduction to anyone. I prefer to just get my own opinion from it.
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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Mon May 10, 2010 3:13 pm

No, no, the eternal recurrence is the proposition that we shall live this precise life, not once, but an eternal number of times. However, it's not a scientific idea or theory.. It's not actually something that is offered as "This is how it might be". Rather, it's a koan, it's an idea that is - if you think about it - quite radical. It means, after all, that one does not live through the bad moments just once, but an infinite amount of times.. That these darkest hours will be relived again and again and again and again. Now this proposition leads to different 'psychological' answers. One is what Nietzsche proposes as a 'yes-saying' to life. This he offers as the answer to loss of all value, the devaluation of all values.. nihilism in Europe as a consequence of Christianity.

It's not an idea about reality, it's not a physical theory, it's an idea, an 'aesthetic story' that generates a life-attitude.
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Quod tanto impendio absconditur etiam solummodo demonstrare destruere est - Tertullian

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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by Animavore » Mon May 10, 2010 3:18 pm

Are you talking about reliving your memories and thinking "If I should've done this or said that" and then applying that to future situations?
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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by Animavore » Mon May 10, 2010 3:40 pm

Looked up "koan". Got you now. It's an idea to awaken the senses. To make you realise that every passed or missed opportunity, every time shyness or fear stopped you from taking an action, will reverberate through your psyche where as the person who lives life in the affirmative, his actions resonate throughout himself and lead to a happy fulfilled life without having to resort to hopes of "other-worlds" (am I warm or cold?)
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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Mon May 10, 2010 7:20 pm

Warm, but you screw it up in the end ;)
lead to a happy fulfilled life without having to resort to hopes of "other-worlds" (am I warm or cold?)
The other worlds is good, it's about 'this life'. However, a happy fulfilled life is not really a goal. There's no goal. There's not stuff to be accrued. There's no point, high or low, where it can be said in Nietzsche - now you've made it. It's about the journey, about the path, about overcoming. And for that, you don't need happiness (which is in most people better described as complacency). Indeed, you can thrive much better in circumstances that are.. unhappy. But all of this is subtle. I'm not saying we should start looking for self-destruction.

I'm actually not sure whether these things can be put to language. If it can, Nietzsche did it in Thus spoke Zarathustra, the section the wanderer:

It's a shitty translation. If you have the book in English and it's a proper translation, read that, not this. A bit of a hurry, so I can't find a good one. You're warned ;) Oh, I'm assuming you don't read German. If you do, obviously, read the original.
Then, when it was about midnight, Zarathustra went his way over the ridge of the isle, that he might arrive early in the morning at the other coast; because there he meant to embark. For there was a good roadstead there, in which foreign ships also liked to anchor: those ships took many people with them, who wished to cross over from the Happy Isles. So when Zarathustra thus ascended the mountain, he thought on the way of his many solitary wanderings from youth onwards, and how many mountains and ridges and summits he had already climbed.
I am a wanderer and mountain-climber, said he to his heart. I love not the plains, and it seemeth I cannot long sit still.
And whatever may still overtake me as fate and experience—a wandering will be therein, and a mountain-climbing: in the end one experienceth only oneself.
The time is now past when accidents could befall me; and what could now fall to my lot which would not already be mine own!
It returneth only, it cometh home to me at last—mine own Self, and such of it as hath been long abroad, and scattered among things and accidents.

And one thing more do I know: I stand now before my last summit, and before that which hath been longest reserved for me. Ah, my hardest path must I ascend! Ah, I have begun my lonesomest wandering!
He, however, who is of my nature doth not avoid such an hour: the hour that saith unto him: Now only dost thou go the way to thy greatness! Summit and abyss—these are now comprised together!
Thou goest the way to thy greatness: now hath it become thy last refuge, what was hitherto thy last danger!
Thou goest the way to thy greatness: it must now be thy best courage that there is no longer any path behind thee!
Thou goest the way to thy greatness: here shall no one steal after thee! Thy foot itself hath effaced the path behind thee, and over it standeth written: Impossibility.
And if all ladders henceforth fail thee, then must thou learn to mount upon thine own head: how couldst thou mount upward otherwise?
Upon thine own head, and beyond thine own heart! Now must the gentlest in thee become the hardest.
He who hath always much-indulged himself, sickeneth at last by his much-indulgence. Praises on what maketh hardy! I do not praise the land where butter and honey—flow!
To learn to look away from oneself, is necessary in order to see many things.—this hardiness is needed by every mountain-climber.
He, however, who is obtrusive with his eyes as a discerner, how can he ever see more of anything than its foreground!
But thou, O Zarathustra, wouldst view the ground of everything, and its background: thus must thou mount even above thyself—up, upwards, until thou hast even thy stars under thee!
Yea! To look down upon myself, and even upon my stars: that only would I call my summit, that hath remained for me as my last summit!—
Thus spake Zarathustra to himself while ascending, comforting his heart with harsh maxims: for he was sore at heart as he had never been before. And when he had reached the top of the mountain-ridge, behold, there lay the other sea spread out before him; and he stood still and was long silent. The night, however, was cold at this height, and clear and starry.
I recognise my destiny, said he at last, sadly. Well! I am ready. Now hath my last lonesomeness begun.
Ah, this sombre, sad sea, below me! Ah, this sombre nocturnal vexation! Ah, fate and sea! To you must I now go down!
Before my highest mountain do I stand, and before my longest wandering: therefore must I first go deeper down than I ever ascended:
—Deeper down into pain than I ever ascended, even into its darkest flood! So willeth my fate. Well! I am ready.
Whence come the highest mountains? so did I once ask. Then did I learn that they come out of the sea.
That testimony is inscribed on their stones, and on the walls of their summits. Out of the deepest must the highest come to its height.—
Thus spake Zarathustra on the ridge of the mountain where it was cold: when, however, he came into the vicinity of the sea, and at last stood alone amongst the cliffs, then had he become weary on his way, and eagerer than ever before.
Everything as yet sleepeth, said he; even the sea sleepeth. Drowsily and strangely doth its eye gaze upon me.
But it breatheth warmly—I feel it. And I feel also that it dreameth. It tosseth about dreamily on hard pillows.
Hark! Hark! How it groaneth with evil recollections! Or evil expectations?
Ah, I am sad along with thee, thou dusky monster, and angry with myself even for thy sake.
Ah, that my hand hath not strength enough! Gladly, indeed, would I free thee from evil dreams!—
And while Zarathustra thus spake, he laughed at himself with melancholy and bitterness. What! Zarathustra, said he, wilt thou even sing consolation to the sea?
Ah, thou amiable fool, Zarathustra, thou too-blindly confiding one! But thus hast thou ever been: ever hast thou approached confidently all that is terrible.
Every monster wouldst thou caress. A whiff of warm breath, a little soft tuft on its paw:—and immediately wert thou ready to love and lure it.
Love is the danger of the lonesomest one, love to anything, if it only live! Laughable, verily, is my folly and my modesty in love!—
Thus spake Zarathustra, and laughed thereby a second time. Then, however, he thought of his abandoned friends—and as if he had done them a wrong with his thoughts, he upbraided himself because of his thoughts. And forthwith it came to pass that the laugher wept—with anger and longing wept Zarathustra bitterly.
I was going to bold some more sections, but I ended up bolding everything, so I just bolded the paragraph that I find particularly interesting.. To a great extent, we are responsible for our own destiny. Not to events, of course - I'm not proposing that wishing for good brings good (indeed, I would say that 'wishing' is bad in itself) - but that we identify things by how we are. Some people see adversity as terrible things happening, as suffering, others see it as a mountain to be climbed.
Bah, I sound like a self-help book.
The original arrogant bastard.
Quod tanto impendio absconditur etiam solummodo demonstrare destruere est - Tertullian

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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by colubridae » Mon May 10, 2010 7:28 pm

Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:Bah, I sound like a self-help book.
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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by Robert_S » Sat May 22, 2010 10:42 pm

Compte:

Do you have a reading recommendation for those of us who do not have much of a background in philosophy as to what the historical impact of Nietzsche was?

Also, I would recommend to everyone that they suspend disbelief for a week or two and walk through life with the notion of eternal recurrence. I found the perspective shift quite challenging.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Sun May 23, 2010 7:57 am

Hard to say. Most literature on Nietzsche focuses not on trying to establish his importance, but rather on providing an interpretation for this or that.

http://www.amazon.com/Importance-Nietzs ... 0226326381

I wouldn't buy this, per example. If you are going to invest energy in Nietzsche, do it in Nietzsche's works.
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Re: Nietzsche - the most important philosopher - discuss

Post by Robert_S » Sun May 23, 2010 9:29 am

Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:Hard to say. Most literature on Nietzsche focuses not on trying to establish his importance, but rather on providing an interpretation for this or that.

http://www.amazon.com/Importance-Nietzs ... 0226326381

I wouldn't buy this, per example. If you are going to invest energy in Nietzsche, do it in Nietzsche's works.
I might give him another try. Years ago I read Zarathustra and a few others. I remember really loving some parts, really not liking others, and really being lost in other sections. At the time I was still holding on to a very vague theism, I'm actually starting to get curious.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange

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