Why atheism ... whence religion?

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Why atheism ... whence religion?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Sat May 22, 2010 8:05 pm

Topic split from here: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 41#p467741 - Charlou


Tails Turrosaki wrote:Toontown, when you get back:

1. Change your username to something gloomy. Toontown is too much of a happy name for you.
2. Tell us your religious beliefs.

Surely you can't be an atheist. :ddpan:
Why would you say that?

Do you think that there is a default political position that you automatically adopt once you cease believing in any gods? Atheists come in all shapes and sizes. Take away religion from someone and they become an atheist - just like taking away their clothes makes them a nude - neither has any affect on any other aspects of their personality, convictions, morality, or any other aspect of what they are.

There are right wing and left wing atheists, anarchist atheists, pacifist atheists, black, brown, yellow, pink and white atheists, lazy and hardworking atheists, tolerant and intolerant atheists, straight and gay atheists, etc.

There are even a few well-adjusted, sane atheists kicking about - although I am yet to actually meet one. The only thing that atheists have in common is their lack of religious beliefs.
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by Tails Turrosaki » Sat May 22, 2010 9:22 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Tails Turrosaki wrote:Toontown, when you get back:

1. Change your username to something gloomy. Toontown is too much of a happy name for you.
2. Tell us your religious beliefs.

Surely you can't be an atheist. :ddpan:
Why would you say that?

Do you think that there is a default political position that you automatically adopt once you cease believing in any gods? Atheists come in all shapes and sizes. Take away religion from someone and they become an atheist - just like taking away their clothes makes them a nude - neither has any affect on any other aspects of their personality, convictions, morality, or any other aspect of what they are.

There are right wing and left wing atheists, anarchist atheists, pacifist atheists, black, brown, yellow, pink and white atheists, lazy and hardworking atheists, tolerant and intolerant atheists, straight and gay atheists, etc.

There are even a few well-adjusted, sane atheists kicking about - although I am yet to actually meet one. The only thing that atheists have in common is their lack of religious beliefs.
But the possibility of one of those icky ones being on here... :nono: So low. Most atheists I know are intelligent. This guy seems like a nationalist. We're supposed to be ASKING questions, not listening to the answers from other people. :ddpan:
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by leo-rcc » Sat May 22, 2010 9:25 pm

Tails Turrosaki wrote:We're supposed to be ASKING questions, not listening to the answers from other people. :ddpan:
:think:
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Sat May 22, 2010 9:31 pm

leo-rcc wrote:
Tails Turrosaki wrote:We're supposed to be ASKING questions, not listening to the answers from other people. :ddpan:
:think:
Yeah. :think:

Why are we supposed to be anything? :dono:
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by Tails Turrosaki » Sat May 22, 2010 9:52 pm

You become an atheist by asking questions.
You can't help it.

So you're supposed to be doing that.

Asking questions.

'Cause it's your nature.

:ddpan:
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat May 22, 2010 10:29 pm

Tails Turrosaki wrote:You become an atheist by asking questions.
You can't help it.

So you're supposed to be doing that.

Asking questions.

'Cause it's your nature.

:ddpan:
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Sat May 22, 2010 10:41 pm

Tails Turrosaki wrote:You become an atheist by asking questions.
You can't help it.

So you're supposed to be doing that.

Asking questions.

'Cause it's your nature.

:ddpan:
That's how some people become atheists. Others are swayed by the arguments of others and decide to follow Dawkins instead of Jeebus. Others are brought up as atheists and never need to question their faith because they never had one in the first place. Others like a lie-in on Sundays.

Still others generalise about other atheists and see unity and conformity with some perceived ideal where none actually exists. This is not a sensible approach to any subject. You are young though, you have a chance to grow out of such habits before they establish themselves.
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by virphen » Sat May 22, 2010 10:59 pm

There's no law, natural or otherwise, that atheists who are free from the repulsive religious ideologies can not enslave their brains to other repulsive ideologies.

You just tend to assume it should work that way. If you can apply critical thinking to conclude that religion is bullshit, why not apply the same critical thinking to conclude that all ideologies are bullshit?

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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Sat May 22, 2010 11:10 pm

virphen wrote:There's no law, natural or otherwise, that atheists who are free from the repulsive religious ideologies can not enslave their brains to other repulsive ideologies.

You just tend to assume it should work that way. If you can apply critical thinking to conclude that religion is bullshit, why not apply the same critical thinking to conclude that all ideologies are bullshit?
People like you always say stuff like that! :Erasb:
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Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by Twiglet » Sun May 23, 2010 1:41 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Tails Turrosaki wrote:Toontown, when you get back:

1. Change your username to something gloomy. Toontown is too much of a happy name for you.
2. Tell us your religious beliefs.

Surely you can't be an atheist. :ddpan:
Why would you say that?

Do you think that there is a default political position that you automatically adopt once you cease believing in any gods? Atheists come in all shapes and sizes. Take away religion from someone and they become an atheist - just like taking away their clothes makes them a nude - neither has any affect on any other aspects of their personality, convictions, morality, or any other aspect of what they are.

There are right wing and left wing atheists, anarchist atheists, pacifist atheists, black, brown, yellow, pink and white atheists, lazy and hardworking atheists, tolerant and intolerant atheists, straight and gay atheists, etc.

There are even a few well-adjusted, sane atheists kicking about - although I am yet to actually meet one. The only thing that atheists have in common is their lack of religious beliefs.

Oddly enough, there does seem to be some correlation,

From science daily: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 132655.htm

Data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health) support Kanazawa's hypothesis. Young adults who subjectively identify themselves as "very liberal" have an average IQ of 106 during adolescence while those who identify themselves as "very conservative" have an average IQ of 95 during adolescence.

Similarly, religion is a byproduct of humans' tendency to perceive agency and intention as causes of events, to see "the hands of God" at work behind otherwise natural phenomena. "Humans are evolutionarily designed to be paranoid, and they believe in God because they are paranoid," says Kanazawa. This innate bias toward paranoia served humans well when self-preservation and protection of their families and clans depended on extreme vigilance to all potential dangers. "So, more intelligent children are more likely to grow up to go against their natural evolutionary tendency to believe in God, and they become atheists."

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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by charlou » Sun May 23, 2010 1:43 am

leo-rcc wrote:
Tails Turrosaki wrote:We're supposed to be ASKING questions, not listening to the answers from other people. :ddpan:
:think:
I read it along the lines of "teach a person how to think, not what to think" ...
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Sun May 23, 2010 2:10 am

Twiglet wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Tails Turrosaki wrote:Toontown, when you get back:

1. Change your username to something gloomy. Toontown is too much of a happy name for you.
2. Tell us your religious beliefs.

Surely you can't be an atheist. :ddpan:
Why would you say that?

Do you think that there is a default political position that you automatically adopt once you cease believing in any gods? Atheists come in all shapes and sizes. Take away religion from someone and they become an atheist - just like taking away their clothes makes them a nude - neither has any affect on any other aspects of their personality, convictions, morality, or any other aspect of what they are.

There are right wing and left wing atheists, anarchist atheists, pacifist atheists, black, brown, yellow, pink and white atheists, lazy and hardworking atheists, tolerant and intolerant atheists, straight and gay atheists, etc.

There are even a few well-adjusted, sane atheists kicking about - although I am yet to actually meet one. The only thing that atheists have in common is their lack of religious beliefs.

Oddly enough, there does seem to be some correlation,

From science daily: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 132655.htm

Data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health) support Kanazawa's hypothesis. Young adults who subjectively identify themselves as "very liberal" have an average IQ of 106 during adolescence while those who identify themselves as "very conservative" have an average IQ of 95 during adolescence.

Similarly, religion is a byproduct of humans' tendency to perceive agency and intention as causes of events, to see "the hands of God" at work behind otherwise natural phenomena. "Humans are evolutionarily designed to be paranoid, and they believe in God because they are paranoid," says Kanazawa. This innate bias toward paranoia served humans well when self-preservation and protection of their families and clans depended on extreme vigilance to all potential dangers. "So, more intelligent children are more likely to grow up to go against their natural evolutionary tendency to believe in God, and they become atheists."
I have come across similar reports before. You are right in saying that there does seem to be a correlation between atheism and high IQ and another between atheism and liberal views, however, a correlation is very different from the statements that Tails was making about how atheists are 'supposed' to think. The human race is richly and complexly diverse in character and correlations only ever highlight the average, not the outlying cases.

I can't say that I completely agree with Kanazawa's paranoia hypothesis as you describe it either. My own feeling as to the origin of the ubiquity of religion and belief in the paranormal is different. See here, if you are interested.
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by charlou » Sun May 23, 2010 2:31 am

XC, I read and agree with your linked post as it relates to our notion of 'self', but I don't think that's what led us to become religious. I think our religious meme arose initially from superstition born of paranoia. Observing animal, particularly herd/prey animals, behaviour generally, their fears and preservative reactions to threats seen and unseen, I think the paranoia hypothesis is a good one ... Think of humans appeasing gods, for example ... rituals and sacrifices in an attempt to placate or please gods in order to improve their chances and conditions of survival ... Mind you, in many cultures, they did so to improve conditions for individuals after death too, so notions of a soul were intertwined with superstition at some point ... then developed concurrently ... hmmm ...
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Sun May 23, 2010 3:13 am

Charlou wrote:XC, I read and agree with your linked post as it relates to our notion of 'self', but I don't think that's what led us to become religious. I think our religious meme arose initially from superstition born of paranoia. Observing animal, particularly herd animal, behaviour generally, their fears and preservative reactions to threats seen and unseen, I think the paranoia hypothesis is a good one ... Think of humans appeasing gods, for example ... rituals and sacrifices in an attempt to placate or please gods in order to improve their chances and conditions of survival.
Your example of herd animals is an interesting one. Do the individuals in the herd fear their own demise in the approach of a predator? Do they watch for movements in the undergrowth because they are scared of lions? No. They act as they act because that is what is hard-wired into their brains directly from their genes. Their fear is visceral, their reactions are instinctive, their behaviour is predictable and, more importantly, benefits the herd as a whole more than it does any individual. Often, the individual behaviour of a herd animal is not the most certain to guarantee its own survival. Humans are different - our self-awareness allows us to short-circuit and override such herd instincts and to act in self-interest. In fact, our desire to protect ourselves is so powerful that individuals that risk their lives for others are the exception (and, since we would hope to have that person assist us if need arose, venerated and held up as examples.)

Fear plays a large part in the psychological 'need' for religion, almost certainly, but it is the sense of self that drives that fear. Human fear comes from knowing what might happen, not from a visceral, gut reaction, and that is the crux of the matter - without reason, there can be no superstition. Wildebeest, cats and slugs have no need of gods because they have no knowledge of self and, ultimately, no desperate need to prolong their lives - they simply act according to the hard-coded patterns that evolution has provided them with - patterns which give us, with our sense of things having motives and reasons, the illusion of self-interest. We alone have evolved the ability to know ourselves and, in so doing, to extrapolate from specific cases to the general. We alone recognise the concept of a reason, an underlying cause, a prime mover, and that is the genetic trap that leads us to create any explanation rather than none - hence religion.
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You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
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Re: Neoprog Posner sucks up to Chicoms

Post by charlou » Sun May 23, 2010 3:51 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote: Do the individuals in the herd fear their own demise in the approach of a predator? Do they watch for movements in the undergrowth because they are scared of lions? No. They act as they act because that is what is hard-wired into their brains directly from their genes. Their fear is visceral, their reactions are instinctive
That doesn't make sense ... you seem to be asserting an uncaused cause there. How did their fear evolve and become part of their behaviour? What brought it about? If they had nothing to fear they would not have developed fear.

Their fear is visceral, but I think panic behaviour is encultured. The young learn to run with the herd ... I think the instinct is to stick with mother, to follow the herd and consequently react as the herd reacts ... and panic is part of that. I think it's the 'experience' (conscious or not is irrelevant) of predation during evolution that has encultured fear and panic.



Edited to add "you seem" and "I think"
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