Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

[Trolldor]

They may not base their decision on race.

lawl. They have no choice but to base it on race.

That's simply not true. They can base it on non-racial factors, just as "reasonable suspicion" for a stop by police officers is based on non-racial factors all the time. "Reasonable suspicion" has been the mandated test for the legitimacy of a police stop in the US since the Supreme Court mandated it many decades ago. See Terry v Ohio ("articulable facts" and "reasonable to assume" test - aka "reasonable suspicion" test). The Fourth Amendment as construed in Terry already requires that the police officer have an articulable reasonable suspicion of crime to make the initial stop. The new Arizona law adds an additional twist: If, after the initial stop, the officer develops a further reasonable suspicion that the detainee is an undocumented immigrant, the officer then must take steps to ascertain the detainee's immigration status.

Examples of reasonable suspicion of unlawful presence:

1. A driver stopped for a traffic violation has no license, or record of a driver's license or other form of federal or state identification.
2. A police officer observes someone buying fraudulent identity documents or crossing the border illegally.
3. A police officer recognizes a gang member back on the street who he knows has been previously deported by the federal government.
4. A person running away when approached by law enforcement officers, or a car failing to stop when the police turn on their lights and siren.

Non-citizens are and have been required to carry their visas/I-94s/I-94W's and/or green cards on them. That's the law. It's illegal for them NOT to have it on them. The new state law requires (1) a lawful stop for non-immigration reasons, and (2) reasonable suspicion of unlawful presence. Then what happens is the officer will verify with the US immigration service the status of the individual in question. If the individual is not lawfully present, they can be handed over to federal authorities.

What's wrong with that?

Unless you're Mexican, in which case just being Mexican is enough to put you under suspicion.

[Coito ergo sum]

Unless you're Mexican, in which case just being Mexican is enough to put you under suspicion.

That's not true. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. The law is written to prohibit discrimination, and there is recourse if it is applied discriminatorily. Any law can be applied in a discriminatory fashion, like speeding laws. Driving While Mexican might well be something to be careful of in Arizona, right? But, we still have speeding laws.

This objection is just plain silly. If you are suggesting the Arizona law is invalid on its face because there might be discriminatory application of the law, then you can apply the same logic to all immigration laws. Heck - all immigration laws are INHERENTLY discriminatory, as they say that people with a different national origin are not permitted to enter the country unless they have followed specific procedures and carry certain papers.

But, this whole idea that Mexicans are discriminated against is utter, and complete, bollocks. What's your evidence?

[Trolldor]

No really, continue. It's amusing.
I'm waiting for you to tell me that minority groups aren't targeted by immigration laws already.

[Coito ergo sum]

No really, continue. It's amusing.
I'm waiting for you to tell me that minority groups aren't targeted by immigration laws already.

All immigration laws from every country target people based on their national origin. Is that something that you find shocking?

What's your view on the French law that allows police to check the mandatory national ID card and immigration papers of an individual anytime there is an "inquiry and investigation" or "whatever the person's behavior, to protect public order..." and without ANY need to show "reasonable suspicion" of anything?

[Svartalf]

Yeah, right.... it's not actually creating a new infraction of "being outside while brown"... because, you know, cops who are notoriously overworked and the fairest men in the land will NOT pay special attention to people with the wrong tone of skin or accent and systematically and impartially check for proof of legal residence with everybody they ever come into contact with if there's evidence the person might not actually be a US citizen?

Given that they already have a record for putting actual native citizens into detention centors for deportation, and making it a real hell for them and their kin to actually prove that they were acting out of mistaken zeal (though my better guess would definitely include sheer spite or racism)... yeah, I'm sure you're right... but if I come visiting the US before that PoS is struck down, I'll make sure not to cross the Az state lines, even if I do intend to go to Mexico anyway.

[Coito ergo sum]

Yeah, right.... it's not actually creating a new infraction of "being outside while brown"...

Right, it's not. The law does not create that kind of infraction. It's actually a much more liberal law than appears to prevail in most of western Europe. In the UK, the bobbies do not need reasonable suspicion to check an immigrant's papers. They can check anytime. In France, if they are engaged in any "inquiry or investigations" they can ask for anybody's immigration status, and if, whatever the person's behavior, the police think they are protecting the "public peace and order" they can check anyone's immigration status. Most western European countries require aliens to carry their immigration paperwork with them at all times while in their country.

because, you know, cops who are notoriously overworked and the fairest men in the land will NOT pay special attention to people with the wrong tone of skin or accent and systematically and impartially check for proof of legal residence with everybody they ever come into contact with if there's evidence the person might not actually be a US citizen?

Your assumption is that Arizona police tend to discriminate against Mexicans? Care to present any proof?

Given that they already have a record for putting actual native citizens into detention centors for deportation, and making it a real hell for them and their kin to actually prove that they were acting out of mistaken zeal (though my better guess would definitely include sheer spite or racism)... yeah, I'm sure you're right... but if I come visiting the US before that PoS is struck down, I'll make sure not to cross the Az state lines, even if I do intend to go to Mexico anyway.

What country are you from? I'll look up your country's immigration laws and see what your police are allowed to do. I am willing to bet right now they have more power than this Arizona law gives to Arizona cops.

EDIT: If the "Paris, France" notation in your profile is correct, then please get your own house in order before pissing and moaning about what Arizona does. French police don't even need reasonable suspicion to check someone's passport/visa papers. In other words, even with this new law, Arizona protects immigrants from having their status verified to a greater degree than France does. I've posted the quote from the French law a few posts up. Pots and kettles, buddy, pots and kettles.

[Svartalf]

I'm from France, but it happens that due to flukes of genetics (called dominant genes) I share with all the men of my father's family a very pronouced Moorish cast of features... dark hair, big nose, ability to tan very dark if I take enough sun... one of my uncles used to spy in the Arab bars in Algiers before we gave them their independance if you catch the extent of it...

Now, it may have to do with the fact that I don't go in the wrong places, but it has NEVER happened to me to get my ID controlled for having a suspiscious face, which I hear a lot of black and Arabic men are commonly harassed with by spiteful policement (and I hold French police in such esteem that I would not bat an Eye if somebody decided to just bag them all up and "send them east")

[Coito ergo sum]

Now, it may have to do with the fact that I don't go in the wrong places, but it has NEVER happened to me to get my ID controlled for having a suspiscious face, which I hear a lot of black and Arabic men are commonly harassed with by spiteful policement (and I hold French police in such esteem that I would not bat an Eye if somebody decided to just bag them all up and "send them east")

Be that as it may, the French police have greater power than the Arizona police (even after the new Arizona law) to check immigration status. It seems that most of the western European countries have already gone much farther than Arizona, and yet there is so much ire, including ire from Europe, about Arizona? Why?

[Svartalf]

Because it's darn unpleasant to see the "land of the Free" go the way of a Socialist Soviet Republic... You're famous for upholding the rule of Law and defending individual freedoms against encroachment by the State... What do we have to look up to if you start taking the same tyrannous way our rulers have already imposed on us, and we without a second amendment and the proper hardware and training to resist?

[Coito ergo sum]

Because it's darn unpleasant to see the "land of the Free" go the way of a Socialist Soviet Republic...

It's not. It's not even going as far as France and the UK.

You're famous for upholding the rule of Law and defending individual freedoms against encroachment by the State...

That's right, but with millions of people purposefully and intentionally violating our immigration laws, we do need to do something about it. It's not as if the US doesn't let people in legally. More people come here legally than immigrate to any other country in the world, and our top two categories of immigrants are "brown people" - Mexicans and Indians.

What do we have to look up to if you start taking the same tyrannous way our rulers have already imposed on us, and we without a second amendment and the proper hardware and training to resist?

All this is is letting police enforce the law if they have reasonable suspicion that it is being broken. That's not tyranny.

[Martok]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3CAIdzt ... re=related[/youtube]

Even the governator is afraid to travel to Arizona.

[Coito ergo sum]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3CAIdzt ... re=related[/youtube]

Even the governator is afraid to travel to Arizona.

Then he should be afraid to travel to France, Germany, the UK, Spain, Belgium.....their police could check his immigration status and don't even need "reasonable suspicion" to do it!

[Martok]

Then he should be afraid to travel to France, Germany, the UK, Spain, Belgium.....their police could check his immigration status and don't even need "reasonable suspicion" to do it!

I'm sure Arnie knows he really has nothing to worry about in Arizona.

He doesn't look Hispanic.

[Coito ergo sum]

Then he should be afraid to travel to France, Germany, the UK, Spain, Belgium.....their police could check his immigration status and don't even need "reasonable suspicion" to do it!

I'm sure Arnie knows he really has nothing to worry about in Arizona.

He doesn't look Hispanic.

Ridiculous. So, because there are a lot of Mexicans in Arizona, Arizona police can't do what French, British, Belgian, Spanish, Italian and just about every other western nation's police can do.

[Martok]

Oh-oh

Arizona’s new immigration law may have been aimed at deporting as many illegal immigrants as possible, but an ironic side effect will allow more undocumented residents to apply for temporary work visas and permanent U.S. citizenship, according to research by the Arizona Capitol Times.

The new law will add to a processing backlog that already has caused federal authorities to release an increasing number of illegal immigrants back into the U.S. to await deportation hearings. And if nationwide figures can be applied to Arizona, one in four of those who are released from federal custody fail to appear in court. (read more)

http://azcapitoltimes.com/blog/2010/05/ ... -citizens/