Non sexual intimacy.

[floppit]

I think the west has fucked this up, made a booboo, chucked a nipper away with the bathwater! In other cultures men (not just gay men!) hold hands down the street, women do each other's hair, women hold hands, people touch each other constantly and often tenderly, there is a flow on intimacy that in no way binds itself to sex. I think religion took this out of our culture, I can't prove that, but it's a strong hunch as it became unacceptable to be perceived as behaving in ways that COULD be sexual.

Now, in my social group there is little if any religion left but the reservations it left are still going strong. I could count on one hand the times I have hugged my best friend of 28yrs. Outside of a sexualised context the only person I have a routine intimacy with is my daughter - her precious cuddles, our endless play. My partner and I cuddle not for sexual reasons all the time but it feels permitted because the sex is there.

I was watching a video of Sri Lanka, somewhere I loved a great deal - just a group of lads singing on the beach. The men do sing together, often, even at the drop of a hat. I remembered my hair being done, I remembered it was hard to get used to the gentleness reserved for immediate families over here, I remember realising how common place it was there.

In escaping the binds of religion we fight for reason, for the mind. I wonder if maybe we should fight for the heart too, I think something integral to group creatures got taken away but we remain still, deep down, group creatures.

[Feck]

Sorry but your post reminded me of this .

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

[Rum]

I think the issue is that all contact of the kind you are describing has been sexualized. I have been thinking since reading your post about why that might be. You can't cuddle a kid any more without someone looking at you suspiciously. You can't swim naked any more as people used to do commonly. You can't share a bath with your kids without wondering if it might be viewed as a 'bad thing'.

And yet society as a whole is much more liberal and open about sex. People do it all the time with all sorts of people at the drop of a hat in ways that would have been unthinkable not long ago.

And yet, as you say, you can't hold hands with a mate of the same sex without it signalling something sexual.

Perhaps it is precisely because sex is much more open and thought about that this has happened. Maybe in previous generations our own naivety was a blanket that we wrapped ourselves in and it kept our own thoughts, sexual or otherwise, to internal and unshared..and probably as a result less actually sexual.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I think the issue is that all contact of the kind you are describing has been sexualized. I have been thinking since reading your post about why that might be. You can't cuddle a kid any more without someone looking at you suspiciously. You can't swim naked any more as people used to do commonly. You can't share a bath with your kids without wondering if it might be viewed as a 'bad thing'.

And yet society as a whole is much more liberal and open about sex. People do it all the time with all sorts of people at the drop of a hat in ways that would have been unthinkable not long ago.

And yet, as you say, you can't hold hands with a mate of the same sex without it signalling something sexual.

Perhaps it is precisely because sex is much more open and thought about that this has happened. Maybe in previous generations our own naivety was a blanket that we wrapped ourselves in and it kept our own thoughts, sexual or otherwise, to internal and unshared..and probably as a result less actually sexual.

I disagree there, Rum. I think the removal of public intimacy happened at the same time as the clampdown on sexuality - ie. the early Victorian era. It was part and parcel of the same mindset. Somehow, we have dropped the sexual inhibitions but kept the ones pertaining to public displays of affection - bizarre!

[floppit]

Somehow, we have dropped the sexual inhibitions but kept the ones pertaining to public displays of affection - bizarre!

I think that's it in a nutshell. I'm not denying what you're saying Rum, while I don't feel it as strongly as you do I accept fully many people do. I just think it's caused by the religious impact on displaying affection.

Feck - that monstrosity would never have been conceived in a culture where non sexual intimacy was routine, accepted and a core part of human relationships. It's freakish idiocy springs directly from a culturally inhibited human need.

BTW - I have started to challenge the above a little in every day life. When I leave an elderly person's house I hold the hand they offer for shaking quite warmly, sometimes with both of my hands - they linger, often start talking again while we hold hands. I raise my voice less to get attention but prefer to touch someone on the shoulder - so far with only positive effects. I have always been very cuddly with my daughter and she asks other kids to hold her hand frequently, most other children are too shy but she tries again another day! I reckon this side of life is every bit as important as reasoning so as I honestly believe we have it wrong at present then it is equally important to do different.

[AshtonBlack]

I think the issue is that all contact of the kind you are describing has been sexualized. I have been thinking since reading your post about why that might be. You can't cuddle a kid any more without someone looking at you suspiciously. You can't swim naked any more as people used to do commonly. You can't share a bath with your kids without wondering if it might be viewed as a 'bad thing'.

And yet society as a whole is much more liberal and open about sex. People do it all the time with all sorts of people at the drop of a hat in ways that would have been unthinkable not long ago.

And yet, as you say, you can't hold hands with a mate of the same sex without it signalling something sexual.

Perhaps it is precisely because sex is much more open and thought about that this has happened. Maybe in previous generations our own naivety was a blanket that we wrapped ourselves in and it kept our own thoughts, sexual or otherwise, to internal and unshared..and probably as a result less actually sexual.

I disagree there, Rum. I think the removal of public intimacy happened at the same time as the clampdown on sexuality - ie. the early Victorian era. It was part and parcel of the same mindset. Somehow, we have dropped the sexual inhibitions but kept the ones pertaining to public displays of affection - bizarre!

This, to me, seems a fair argument.

[Rum]

I think the issue is that all contact of the kind you are describing has been sexualized. I have been thinking since reading your post about why that might be. You can't cuddle a kid any more without someone looking at you suspiciously. You can't swim naked any more as people used to do commonly. You can't share a bath with your kids without wondering if it might be viewed as a 'bad thing'.

And yet society as a whole is much more liberal and open about sex. People do it all the time with all sorts of people at the drop of a hat in ways that would have been unthinkable not long ago.

And yet, as you say, you can't hold hands with a mate of the same sex without it signalling something sexual.

Perhaps it is precisely because sex is much more open and thought about that this has happened. Maybe in previous generations our own naivety was a blanket that we wrapped ourselves in and it kept our own thoughts, sexual or otherwise, to internal and unshared..and probably as a result less actually sexual.

I disagree there, Rum. I think the removal of public intimacy happened at the same time as the clampdown on sexuality - ie. the early Victorian era. It was part and parcel of the same mindset. Somehow, we have dropped the sexual inhibitions but kept the ones pertaining to public displays of affection - bizarre!

I think you are wrong there. When I was a kid, back in the 50s children at the beach, pre-pubescent - so anything up to around ten or 11 would be naked. Girls in particular would hold hands in their teens. My dad's generation would go to the local lake and the guys in same sex groups would swim naked and my dad, I remember him saying once when we were discussing a very similar issue a few years ago told me that boys in their teens would often hold hands - this would be the 1930s I guess.

My take is that life in general has become much more sexualised in the last 30 years. Kids clothes are even designed to look sexy. With that we are treating what would have been considered as ordinary personal, intimate but 'innocent' contact as sexual now and we are as a result far less relaxed about it.

[floppit]

I think you are wrong there. When I was a kid, back in the 50s children at the beach, pre-pubescent - so anything up to around ten or 11 would be naked. Girls in particular would hold hands in their teens. My dad's generation would go to the local lake and the guys in same sex groups would swim naked and my dad, I remember him saying once when we were discussing a very similar issue a few years ago told me that boys in their teens would often hold hands - this would be the 1930s I guess.

My take is that life in general has become much more sexualised in the last 30 years. Kids clothes are even designed to look sexy. With that we are treating what would have been considered as ordinary personal, intimate but 'innocent' contact as sexual now and we are as a result far less relaxed about it.

I can't really comment on the 30's and 50's because I wasn't there and my parents stories differ from yours but then my parents are weird! The phrase 'Children should be seen and not heard' hardly feels affectionate and I've been told it was commonplace.

Let's say your position is utterly correct with no reservation. In a world where sexual freedom increases year on year shouldn't we see a rise in non sexual affection too? After all, if men stopped holding hands because gay was taboo and holding hands became sexualised then as being gay becomes more acceptable wouldn't you see it creep back? Fair enough the impact re non family and children would remain as that is clearly taboo but forms of affection between adults would surely be on the rise to some extent?

[Rum]

I think you are wrong there. When I was a kid, back in the 50s children at the beach, pre-pubescent - so anything up to around ten or 11 would be naked. Girls in particular would hold hands in their teens. My dad's generation would go to the local lake and the guys in same sex groups would swim naked and my dad, I remember him saying once when we were discussing a very similar issue a few years ago told me that boys in their teens would often hold hands - this would be the 1930s I guess.

My take is that life in general has become much more sexualised in the last 30 years. Kids clothes are even designed to look sexy. With that we are treating what would have been considered as ordinary personal, intimate but 'innocent' contact as sexual now and we are as a result far less relaxed about it.

I can't really comment on the 30's and 50's because I wasn't there and my parents stories differ from yours but then my parents are weird! The phrase 'Children should be seen and not heard' hardly feels affectionate and I've been told it was commonplace.

Let's say your position is utterly correct with no reservation. In a world where sexual freedom increases year on year shouldn't we see a rise in non sexual affection too? After all, if men stopped holding hands because gay was taboo and holding hands became sexualised then as being gay becomes more acceptable wouldn't you see it creep back? Fair enough the impact re non family and children would remain as that is clearly taboo but forms of affection between adults would surely be on the rise to some extent?

Well this is a weird one to gauge, but I remember how taboo sex generally was as a kid. I was of a generation which caught the tail end of the Victorian approach and the 50s were terribly repressed. As I say anything sexual was repressed, taboo and deeply embarrassing.

So my take on it is that as sex has become more open and just part of life (thank goodness!) there has been a recognition of the 'potential' of other types of contact to be sexual and perhaps to avoid ambiguity , mixed messages or misunderstanding we avoid that 'innocent' contact to be on the safe side.

[Trolldor]

Guys holding hands was 'okey dokey' because homosexuality was mostly 'behind closed doors'. These days, it's not.

[Thinking Aloud]

In a world where sexual freedom increases year on year shouldn't we see a rise in non sexual affection too?

It should, but now that any kind of accidental or innocent touching, even between primary school children, can lead to sexual assault charges, who's going to encourage their kids to show any kind of physical, non-sexual affection? I think we're too far gone to change back quickly.

[floppit]

who's going to encourage their kids to show any kind of physical, non-sexual affection?

I do and it works.

[RuleBritannia]

Why would you want to hold anyone's hand? I only hold my girlfriend's 'cause she makes me.

[Svartalf]

Floppit, you lost me from thread title.

I do admit that I'm likely seriously neurotic, but what are you going on about? Non sexual intimacy? I just hate being touched at all unless the lady and I are in bed, or going to be very soon, and touchy feely guys give me a certain urge to puke when I happen to be the object of their attention.... that or my adrenalin starts flowing and the fight or flight response kicks in.

What I don't get is why you seem to regard that as quite bad.

[kiki5711]

Rum wrote:I think the issue is that all contact of the kind you are describing has been sexualized. I have been thinking since reading your post about why that might be. You can't cuddle a kid any more without someone looking at you suspiciously. You can't swim naked any more as people used to do commonly. You can't share a bath with your kids without wondering if it might be viewed as a 'bad thing'.

People use to swim naked everywhere? I never seen that and I come from a country where sex is pretty open. Swimming in nude was and still is reserved for certain beaches. Anyway, all the good looking bodies are somewhere else and all you end up starring at is a bunch of blubber bound people, so not a turn on.

As far as sharing a bath with the kids ,hell no! It's the only quiet time I get, I don't want that ruined too.