Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by RuleBritannia » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:23 am

Pappa wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:When England ejects the Anglo-Saxons back to Germany and Holland, we'll talk about it.
Now you're talking! 8-)
What's an Anglo-Saxon?
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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Pappa » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:04 am

RuleBritannia wrote:
Pappa wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:When England ejects the Anglo-Saxons back to Germany and Holland, we'll talk about it.
Now you're talking! 8-)
What's an Anglo-Saxon?
Ah... um... details....
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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:15 pm

Code: Select all

AZ governor dismisses threat of economic boycott

Tue Apr 27, 12:32 am ET
TUCSON, Ariz. – Gov. Jan Brewer is dismissing the threat of an economic boycott over the new state immigration law she signed last week.
Appearing Monday at an Arizona Town Hall in Tucson, Brewer said she doesn't believe the law is "going to have the kind of economic impact that some people think it might."
U.S. Rep. Raul Grijalva, a Tucson Democrat, has called for a boycott of convention business for the state and other calls have come for a boycott of Arizona goods, services and tourism because of the nationally controversial immigration law.
The Arizona Daily Star reports that Brewer says outrage over the ability of police to ask people for citizenship documentation will fade. She recalled how another uproar faded when she was secretary of state and rode herd over a requirement that voters show ID at the polls.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100427/ap_ ... ent_brewer

Rather than boycott, I would rather these people suggest how Arizona should better deal with the illegal immigrant problem.

Should the borders just be opened up, and it's legal for anyone to enter and leave the US at any time?
If so, there's not much to talk about - that would be an impasse in the discussion.
If not, what sort of restrictions on immigration should there be, and how should they be enforced?

Enough already with the bogus claims of racism and discrimination (the US admits more Mexicans both as permanent residents and new citizens than come from any other country, and the US admits more immigrants than any other country on the planet - so, to suggest the US is either hostile to Mexicans or hostile to immigration in general is flat out counter-factual). If they don't like what Arizona is doing, they should suggest a viable alternative.

As a child of immigrants whose parents still speak with an accent, I am quite in favor of immigration. However, there is a difference between applying to come to a country by filling out the proper paperwork and obtaining the necessary approvals, and abiding by the country's tax and employment laws, and simply coming across the border and living in a country without regard for the law. I don't see any other country in the world opening its borders to anyone who just decides to trot across its borders, so I see no reason why the US should not also be allowed to have reasonable immigration rules, and clearly the US is quite reasonable, given that more people immigrate lawfully to the US than any other country in the world.

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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Martok » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:40 pm

That Arizona law is so fucked up even a right wing loony tune like Tom Tancredo, doesn't like it. :lol:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-a ... w---border

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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:56 pm

Martok wrote:That Arizona law is so fucked up even a right wing loony tune like Tom Tancredo, doesn't like it. :lol:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-a ... w---border
O.k. - let's talk about it: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

What's the problem with it?

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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:14 pm

Martok wrote:That Arizona law is so fucked up even a right wing loony tune like Tom Tancredo, doesn't like it. :lol:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-a ... w---border
Tancredo said: I do not want the police to pull people over because you look like you should be pulled over. That's fine, and the law is apparently based on "reasonable suspicion," and it would not be reasonable to pull someone over because they "look" a certain way. The governor of Arizona also signed an executive order requiring police training and implementation of strict policies to prevent racial profiling before the law is put in force. http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/23/ ... index.html

Stewart then asks, what would they be doing that would be suspicious:
1. They could be caught crossing the border. Presently, Arizona state law enforcement does not have the authority to arrest people for crossing the border illegally. So, Stewart's dismissal of that circumstance out of hand is not well taken. The federal forces are not getting the job done along the border. So, Arizona would like to make a law allowing their police to arrest people who cross.
2. They may be caught driving through town in a van full of 20+ Spanish speaking folk, in the manner that people are quite often "trafficked" across the border with "mules" taking them into the US. So, a police officer might run a plate, see that the plate comes up as invalid or unregistered, pull them over, check the driver's paperwork and see a bunch of people stuffed in the back. It would be reasonable to check to see, given that that's how people are trafficked into the country, whether they are in fact legally here.
3. Reasonable suspicion might arise when someone applies for a job and can't pass an I-9 form (employment eligibility verification), and perhaps the prospective employer will call the police who can then check out if the person is lawfully present.

I suppose there could be many other fact situations that would give rise to "reasonable suspicion."

They Stewart clip goes not to juxtapose a white guy and an apparently Latino guy and call the Latino guy "reasonably suspiciously illegal," and the claim that such a distinction is going to be sufficient under the law does not appear to accord with reality, at least not at present.

Based on the argument in the the Stewart video, there is no fair way to ever determine who is legal and who is not illegal. It wouldn't matter if the federal border control made the determination, would it? After all, who the law enforcement officer is doesn't change whether there is reasonable suspicion, does it? So, who does get to decide who is legal and illegal? Anyone?

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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Martok » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:30 pm

What does Rush Limbaugh say about this bill?

If he approves of it then wing nuts like Tom Tancredo will fall in line.

I hear Pheonix is considering filing a lawsuit against the State of Arizona. :shock:

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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:07 pm

Martok wrote:What does Rush Limbaugh say about this bill?
I don't know.
Martok wrote:
If he approves of it then wing nuts like Tom Tancredo will fall in line.
I don't evaluate the bill based on whether my team is in agreement with it.
Martok wrote:
I hear Pheonix is considering filing a lawsuit against the State of Arizona. :shock:
Just because someone is contemplating filing a lawsuit is a far cry from evidence that the lawsuit would prevail.


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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:39 pm

Illegal aliens leaving Arizona because of new law....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/ ... 2729.shtml

Oh, the humanity! Those people knowingly violating federal immigration laws are -- gasp! -- leaving? Oh....my....effing....gawd! What a travesty!

No, don't leave...stay...immigration laws, well, they're really only "rough guidelines" anyway....

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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by drl2 » Sat May 01, 2010 2:30 am

I think we're taking entirely the wrong approach to illegal immigration. We just need to keep pushing free-trade-uber-alles economic policy, and pretty soon all the good jobs will be gone and they'll go back home where there's more opportunity! :lol: I find it curious that there's quite a bit of overlap between the folks who think the minimum wage should be eliminated to lower prices and the folks who want to get rid of the workers who are keeping prices lower by working undocumented for less than minimum wage. (And of course, if prices go up, they'll blame "big government". :roll: )

Our immigration policies are screwed up. I get that. I understand that the influx of undocumented workers is putting a strain on resources, and the damage caused by some along the border is a genuine concern. But I refuse to accept this Arizona law as a solution to any of these problems. It's an innocent until proven guilty law, the antithesis of the way our legal system is supposed to work, and it's set up so that any yahoo with an axe to grind against anybody with vaguely brownish skin can essentially force a police officer, via threat of lawsuit, to stop someone on the street and demand "papers", and that person, even if here legally, can face fines and/or jail time just for not having the proper form of ID on their person.

The Beck/Limbaugh crowd are pointing leftward screaming "Nazis!" while their followers are making it dangerous to even look like you belong to a specific ethnic group.
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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Feck » Sat May 01, 2010 3:16 am

Now I have difficulty understanding how your neighbours can be a third world country ... Merika spent so much time and effort messing in other central and southern American countries ..... Why haven't you done a better job in Mexico ?

If any of you lived there you would be right over the border legal or not .
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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Coito ergo sum » Sat May 01, 2010 12:26 pm

drl2 wrote:I think we're taking entirely the wrong approach to illegal immigration. We just need to keep pushing free-trade-uber-alles economic policy, and pretty soon all the good jobs will be gone and they'll go back home where there's more opportunity! :lol: I find it curious that there's quite a bit of overlap between the folks who think the minimum wage should be eliminated to lower prices and the folks who want to get rid of the workers who are keeping prices lower by working undocumented for less than minimum wage. (And of course, if prices go up, they'll blame "big government". :roll: )
Soooooo....you....want illegal aliens to work in the United States under the table?
drl2 wrote:
Our immigration policies are screwed up. I get that. I understand that the influx of undocumented workers is putting a strain on resources, and the damage caused by some along the border is a genuine concern. But I refuse to accept this Arizona law as a solution to any of these problems.
Why? The State of Arizona is enacting a solution to Arizona's problem. Nobody else is helping them. If you have a better solution, what is it?
drl2 wrote:
It's an innocent until proven guilty law, the antithesis of the way our legal system is supposed to work,
Innocent until proven guilty is how our laws are supposed to work. If you mean, guilty until proven innocent, this law is not that. It allows state police to, in connection with a lawful stop of a person for a normal crime or infraction, to check immigration status if there is reasonable suspicion based on objective, non-race related criteria. Reasonable suspicion is a very well vetted legal principle in the US - a cop needs "reasonable suspicion" to "stop and frisk" ANY person, citizen or not, for example. If reasonable suspicion is good enough to allow a cop to stop and frisk me, then it sure as fuck should be sufficient to check if I'm lawfully in the country.
drl2 wrote: and it's set up so that any yahoo with an axe to grind against anybody with vaguely brownish skin can essentially force a police officer, via threat of lawsuit, to stop someone on the street and demand "papers",
That it does not do. The law does not allow that. It has nothing to do with "brownish" skin. Look, Mexicans represent the single largest block of immigrants to the US as compared to any other country in the world. More immigrants come from Mexico than anywhere else - that is LEGAL immigrants. The US does NOT have it in for Mexicans. This myth that the US is somehow gunning for Mexicans is fucking balls out ridiculous. The next largest immigrant bloc comes from fucking India, by the way, and after that, it's the Phillipines. So, there is no way to argue that the US has it in for "brownish" skinned people. This is about people who come here illegally, period.
drl2 wrote:
and that person, even if here legally, can face fines and/or jail time just for not having the proper form of ID on their person.
No, "just for not having a proper form of ID on them." For being in the country illegally.
drl2 wrote:
The Beck/Limbaugh crowd are pointing leftward screaming "Nazis!" while their followers are making it dangerous to even look like you belong to a specific ethnic group.
That's ridiculous. I'm no fan of Beck or Limbaugh, but it is ridiculous to claim that it'll be "dangerous" to be of a specific ethnic group.

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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Coito ergo sum » Sat May 01, 2010 12:28 pm

Feck wrote:Now I have difficulty understanding how your neighbours can be a third world country ... Merika spent so much time and effort messing in other central and southern American countries ..... Why haven't you done a better job in Mexico ?

If any of you lived there you would be right over the border legal or not .
What country are you from?

How about your country opens its borders to "come one come all" first?

And, no European has any business criticizing the US for "messing with" other nations in the world. The Europeans made an art form of it. So, if you're from England, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany, or Holland, please, don't lecture the United States. It's unbecoming.

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Re: Violation of Arizona law to be illegally in the US!

Post by Martok » Sat May 01, 2010 12:41 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:March in favor of illegal immigration!!! :dono:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... rday-.html
Police expect 100,000 protesters.

That's larger than that teabagger/Fox rally in DC last year. :lol:

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