"Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Politics"

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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by macdoc » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:46 pm

- constant overhyping of the issue in order to "raise awareness" a la Al Gore.
What overhyping would that be?? :roll:

The IPCC has proven conservative each time it releases scenario reports...

MIT has rather altered it's tune as well based on observation...
Climate change odds much worse than thought
New analysis shows warming could be double previous estimates
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/roulette-0519.html

Most in the mainstream climate community will acknowledge privately it's gonna get way worse way faster than most comprehend.

The Arctic alone is decades ahead of the scenarios looked at even a decade ago.

Do try and keep up.

Even the fossil companies acknowledge the "incontrovertible" reality of AGW and are set at making money providing solutions.
Industry Ignored Its Scientists on Climate - NYTimes.com
24 Apr 2009 ... A fossil fuels industry group campaigned against an idea its own scientists ... experts wrote in an internal report compiled for the coalition in 1995. ... Environmentalists have long maintained that industry knew early on that ... sake of companies' fight against curbs on greenhouse gas emissions. ..
.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/sc...th/24deny.html

The major question that is facing us is how fast and how severe will this play out.....
and what if anything can be done about it.

Denial of the reality of AGW is a failed meme despite the efforts of those same fossil interests to sow doubt.
They've moved on to "solutions"....most people with a lick of sense know that.

There ARE huge questions as to how to deal with the issues AGW raises.

Even Exxon knows and intends to make money on the situation.
Gene scientist to create algae biofuel with Exxon Mobil
New biofuel requires no car or plane engine modification

Alok Jha, The Guardian - Published under license by, BusinessGreen, 15 Jul 2009

Gene scientist Craig Venter has announced plans to develop next-generation biofuels from algae in a $600m partnership with oil giant Exxon Mobil.

His company, Synthetic Genomics Incorporated (SGI), will develop fuels that can be used by cars or aeroplanes without the need for any modification of their engines. Exxon Mobil will provide $600m over five years with half going to SGI.

"Meeting the world's growing energy demands will require a multitude of technologies and energy sources," said Emil Jacobs, vice president of research and development at ExxonMobil. "We believe that biofuel produced by algae could be a meaningful part of the solution in the future if our efforts result in an economically viable, low-net carbon emission transportation fuel."
There are many questions to resolve on timing and severity.

The reality that
it's warming
we're primarily responsible due to burning of fossil fuel
is not in question...

The physics have been understood and observed for over 100 years.
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/summary.htm

WHAT to do about that reality is indeed a very difficult task.

Fortunately much is being done below national government level and some national govs like Sweden and Norway are committed to and on the path to carbon neutral industrial societies by 2050 or sooner.

Even many cities are taking steps on their own....Copenhagen and Portland Oregon notably.

Move on ...denial of AGW is passé ...big time. :coffee:
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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Fact-Man » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:21 am

Fact-Man wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote: But you offered the comment in the context of a discussion about GW and climate change and hence I took it that way. Not too surprising, eh?
And, rightly so, because it falls into the same category - constant overhyping of the issue in order to "raise awareness" a la Al Gore.
That’s nonsense. We’re talking about climate science, which is conducted rigorously and with great regard for error.

In 1989 we (the world) created a climate science body to look after and monitor the climate for us and to report to us what the science is saying, which they do every five years. This is a science agency, the IPCC, some 2,500 scientists woking gratis collecting, accumulating and integrating some 10,000 scientific papers (or books), then evaluating them and figururing out what their data are showing and describing that in language we can understand.

AR4, published in Spring 07, is 3,000 pages of reporting on our climate, all of which are freely available on the web in convenient PDF files. It is the product if five years of analyzing, testing, refining, correlating, comparing, structuring, normalizing and otherwise dealing with and coming to understand mountains of climate data published in 10,000 peer reviewed papers.

That can’t be done in an undisciplined manner, garbage in, garbage out. It must be disciplined and it is indeed so, as we would expect to find in any scientific undertaking. Discipline is a functioning attribute of working with the scientific method. It keeps science sane and great and ordered, which allows things that we build to work as intended, airplanes fly for example, Apollo went to the moon.

Climate scientists who are active in climate science are of this discipline, make no mistake. It is serious business. The entire world can read their reporting and comment thereon, and it does. You too can read it for youself. Just don’t expect to find any wild assertions or doomsday pronouncements therein, you won’t find them, they are not there. And that’s the voice of climate science. Thewre is no other voice that speaks for the science, none.

Everything else is like static on the radio, noise generated by a host of competing interests, the fossil fuel industry’s propaganda campaign, the auto industry’s resistance, political machinations, they’re all in that mix. What you hear from them isn’t the science, nor even about the science, it's propaganda, it's spin, it's poor reporting.

If some blogger goes bonkers and writes a doomsday scenario off his interpretation of what he’s heard (he probably doesn’t read much) that’s him talking, not climate science. If some scientist, whom Exxon is paying $200K a year to speak for them, gets up and says “Al Gore is an alarmist and a hype artist,” that’s Exxon speaking, not the scientist and certainly not the science.

It is necessary to distinguish the meaningless from the meaningful. The only words that have any real play in this thing are the one’s the scientists write, most of all else is meaningless and irrelevant … to the central issue.

Thus we should not equate any scientific prognostication published by the IPCC to the ranting of environmental doomsdays expressed in times past. The former is in a completely different league. It is organized. It is a Manhattan project. With 2,500 scientists from more than 100 countries, the IPCC’s process almost assures reasonableness and a scientifically appropriate treatment of the facts and evidence. The world can’t do any better than that. The IPCC is mission oriented, the mission is dedication to climate science.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote:
Most of the claims to which you refer weren’t made by scientists or were made by men who thought they were scientists or who wished to be. With the media paying a role by blowing their prognostications out of all proportion, e.g. the Ice Age scare in the 1970’s, which had zero science behind it, was mainly a hype job by the media.
Of course, and much of what general global warming proponents propagate is what is described in the media - overhyped, out of context claims that bear little resemblance to the actual science. There's the engineer who builds something, and then there's the salesmen.
This is not exactly the truth of it.

Distinguish between the science and the rhetoric spewed by the media, but watch what’s expressed in the media a bit more closely, because it is far and away biased toward the hoax idea than any reality. I told you that Exxon had succeeded very well in confusing the nation, which includes the media.

There has not been an army of “proponents” of GW; Gore stands out because he made a movie and won a Nobel (half of which went to the IPCC), but the Al Gore’s are few and far between in media coverage of the issue. And over the past six months this has greatly intensified by climategate, a huge ruckus stirred up by a criminal attack in e:mail servers at East Anglia University’s Climate Reserch Center, a criminal attack.

Did I say something about hardballl?
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote:
Today’s climate scientists are a much more reserved, mature, and disciplined group of people who aren’t given to wild claims or predictions.
You wouldn't know that from the number of things, like the hockey stick graph, and the email scandal, that appear to be exaggerated.
Don’t let the media fool you, and think about it for a moment yourself. The Hockey stick issue was put to bed seven or eight years ago, all of the world’s leading scientific institutions accept the hockey stick as published and say so publicly.

Hand’s criticism are a dollar short and a day late and too weak to make a difference.

The “email scandal” has already been investigated by the Royal Society for the veracity, honesty, integrity, and scientific validity of what was discussed in them ... and found to be clean on that score, nothing was deemed to be unethical and nothing was revealed that would put the theory of AGW at risk or bring it into question. Nothing!

The colloquial nature of the e:mails stems from them involving private conversations never intended to be released to the pubic, more than a decade in the past. They're like whjat we call barracks talk in the army. The thief who stole these e:mails spent a good deal of time and effort scouring through them to find what he thought would be the most damaging and incriminating, which turned out to be some 2,500 out of fifteen or 20,000 that were stolen, building in a bias in the whole body of work by releasing only 2,500 with the best potential for supporting calls of unethical conduct.

Hardball.

The media went for it hook, line and sinker because it intensified the conflict and the media thrives on conflict. The more conflict the better as far as the media’s concerned. The denialosphere went into a frenzy. But it all died down pretty quickly after the investigative reports were published recently.

The criminal investigation of the hack continues.

Now compare that to the (6 * 2,500 * 2K hours) or 30,000 man-years of scientific research carried out by IPCC over the same time frame and see that the email “scandal” and the hockey stick aren’t where the real action is, either in terms of value or in scale or in word count. There may have been 3,000 man-years of effort expended on the e:mail scandal, a pittance compared to the 30,000 man-years of research that was conducted during the same period.

That’s where the real action is. That’s the ball we should have our eyes on.

The science grinds away, the rhetoric comes and goes, so much static on the radio. Never let a propagandist trick you into listening to him.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote:
This is illustrated by more recent discussions involving the notion that the IPCC may have been too conservative in its predictions, which does now appear to be the case.
I'll wait for the data on that.
We all will. The next AR is slated to be published in 2013, that’s when we’ll learn something about where IPCC thinks it has been going and whether they’ll invoke any fundamental revisions to the scenario that have envisioned.
Fact-Man wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote: The AVERAGE goes up and down long term over long periods of time, but there are spikes and valleys above and below the trending mean. That means that one year or decade can be cooler or warmer than another by a lot. But the average temperature trends more slowly.
Spikes and valleys rarely exceed swings of more than 1.5 degree C year-over.
Coito ergo sum wrote:But, they sometimes do.
Rarely. Not frequently enough to make much of a difference. Read the damned paper.
Coito ergo sum wrote: It's just like how we are told we can't judge declining temperatures based on relatively short periods of time. By the same token, one can't judge rising temperatures based on relatively short periods of time.
There’s a lot more to it than this. Climate is defined as the average of what occurs over the proceeding three decades, 30 years. It was defined that way by the British Meteorological Society in 1865 and is considered standard and used as such.

That’s the basis of the idea that we can’t see a decline or an increase in the longer-term temperature trend in any given year, it takes 30 years for the trend to become visible in the data … if you’re talking about climate change, which is what we’re talking about. It’s basically a technical consideration. If you read the Hansen paper I referred you to you’ll see that we can and do indeed know the temp right now and on any given day and we can rank years by the hottest of them recorded, which has been done. But we can’t deal with the longer-term trend until we get close to the 30-year span. If it’s 2C warmer today or this year than it was 30 years ago, we can say the long-term trend is rising, and only then. In the decade of 2000-2010, we measured eight of the hottest years ever recorded, and 1998 was a record setter too. What does that tell us about the trend?

It’s going up and going up fast.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact Man wrote:
See in "Current GISS Global Surface Temperature Analysis" by J. Hansen, R. Ruedy, M. Sato, and K. Lo, NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, New York, New York, USA, available for download as a PDF from:http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/paper ... ft0319.pdf

This is an interesting paper because it reviews and illustrates the datasets, methods, and procedures employed to measure global temperature. Which is a very complex beast.
And, up until VERY recently, an extremely inaccurate beast.
I figured you’d not read the paper.

“extremely inaccurate” meaning what? You don’t award a 95% probability to phenomena that you think are “extremely inaccurate.” You only award such a high degree of probability when you are ultra-confident that your data is rock solid. That’s how science works, that’s how science does it.

It is true that we do not yet have super resolution of the temp trend, but our resolution gets better each passing year and so far that work hasn’t revealed that we’re on the wrong path, which means it very likely won’t ever show that. We have become simply too good at it and work too hard at it to be fooled or lulled into thinking we’re right when we’re actually dead wrong. We’re right and we know why we’re right and we have a good handle on magnitudes.

The actual extent of C02 forcing remains a debatable issue, as I described in an earlier post. But all-in-all, we have a very good understanding of the climate and where it’s headed. Better resolution always helps. We need to deploy many more sensors in the oceans for example and across Antarctica to gain in resolution, but those things cost money, sometimes lots of money, so they are hard to come by.

And of course there are other evidences of a warming planet, acidification of the oceans, melting of the cryosphere, changes in the intensity of weather events, geographical distribution of storm activity, amounts of precipitation, and so on.

All these data tend to corroborate one another and help maintain the temp trend line within reasonably accurate boundaries. The odds against IPCC’s projections being off by any significant margin are long indeed.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote:
What's crucial about climate change today is the rapidity with which it is occurring, as much as the absolute increases in temperature we're likely to see and have in fact already seen. More than a seventh of the 7C rise that ended the last Ice Age has occurred just since 1900, and IPCC's projections show us hitting somewhere between a 2C and a 6C or 7C rise rise by the year 2100. The pace of that change is at rocket speed compared to what happened several thousand years ago to end the last Ice Age.

So regardless of the degree of exaggeration in Mann's hockey stick graph, we are facing a wholly unprecedented rate of increase in earth's MAT, who's absolute number is literally gargantuan in scale, albeit it's expressed in digits that we normally associate with small changes, that is, between 2 and 7C degrees.
Then why would someone exaggerate the hockey stick graph?
A denier or any Mann detractor might exaggerate it to make it appear to be wrong. [/quote]
No, the hockey stick graph was, apparently, shown to be based on improper methodology, etc., according to the article, and was wrong in the sense of exaggerating the upswing.[/quote]
That’s exactly what I said, “make it appear to be wrong” = make ot appear to be exaggerated.”

As I said:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote: I’m sure that Mann does not think he exaggerated anything when he prepared it. The last several decades of his data came directly from the instrumented record, how exaggerated could it be? His pre-instrumented record data came from analyses of tree ring data. Apparently, some deniers claim that his method of splicing these two datasets is where the exaggeration occurs, an argument that never made any sense to me, nor to any mainstream climatologist or science organization.
Professor David Hand does."The particular technique they used exaggerated the size of the blade at the end of the hockey stick. Had they used an appropriate technique the size of the blade of the hockey stick would have been smaller," he said. "The change in temperature is not as great over the 20th century compared to the past as suggested by the Mann paper."
Few accept that this criticism is correct. It is insufficienly robust, it does not counter the fact that the last several decades of Mann’s data is from the instrumented record, it isn’t some wild ass guess, it is what gauges recorded, how exaggerated could it be?

That stick has become a focal point in the controversy surrounding climate change and what to do about it. AGW researchers see it as a clear indicator that humans are warming the globe; skeptics and denialists argue that the climate is undergoing a natural fluctuation not unlike those in eras past, but have not been able to prove it. But Mann has not been deterred by the attacks. "If we allowed that sort of thing to stop us from progressing in science, that would be a very frightening world," he has said.

To construct the hockey-stick plot, Mann, Raymond S. Bradley of the University of Massachusetts Amherst and Malcolm K. Hughes of the University of Arizona analyzed paleoclimatic data sets such as those from tree rings, ice cores and coral, joining historical data with thermometer readings from the recent past. In 1998 they obtained a "reconstruction" of Northern Hemisphere temperatures going back 600 years; by the next year they had extended their analysis to the past 1,000 years. In 2003 Mann and Philip D. Jones of the University of East Anglia in England used a different method to extend results back 2,000 years.

In each case, the outcome was clear: global mean temperature began to rise dramatically in the early 20th century. That rise coincided with the unprecedented release of carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping gases into the earth's atmosphere, leading to the conclusion that industrial activity was boosting the world's mean temperature. Other researchers subsequently confirmed the plot.

The work of Mann and his colleagues achieved special prominence in 2001. That is when the IPCC placed the hockey-stick chart in the Summary for Policymakers section of the panel's Third Assessment Report. (Mann also co-authored one of the chapters in the report.) It thereby elevated the hockey stick to iconic status--as well as making it a bull's-eye. A community skeptical of human-induced warming known as the "denialosphere" argued that Mann's data points were too sparse to constitute a true picture, or that his raw data were numerically suspicious, or that they could not reproduce his results with the data he had used. Take down Mann, it seemed, and the rest of the IPCC's conclusions about anthropogenic climate change would follow.

That led to "unjustified attack after unjustified attack," complains climatologist Gavin A. Schmidt of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies. Although questions in the field abound about how, for example, tree-ring data are compiled, many of those attacking Mann's work, Schmidt claims, have had a priori opinions that the work must be wrong. "Most scientists would have left the field long ago, but Mike is fighting back with a tenacity I find admirable," Schmidt says. One of Mann's more public punch backs took place in July 2003, when he defended his views before a congressional committee led by Senator James M. Inhofe of Oklahoma, who has called global warming a "hoax." "I left that meeting having demonstrated what the mainstream views on climate science are," Mann asserts.

Mann battled back in a 2004 corrigendum in the journal Nature, in which he clarified the presentation of his data. He has also shown how errors on the part of his attackers led to their specific results. For instance, skeptics often cite the Little Ice Age and Medieval Warming Period as pieces of evidence not reflected in the hockey stick, yet these extremes are examples of regional, not global, phenomena. "From an intellectual point of view, these contrarians are pathetic, because there's no scientific validity to their arguments whatsoever," Mann says. "But they're very skilled at deducing what sorts of disingenuous arguments and untruths are likely to be believable to the public that doesn't know better."

Mann thinks that the attacks will continue, because many skeptics, such as the Greening Earth Society and the Tech Central Station Web site, obtain funds from petroleum interests. "As long as they think it works and they've got unlimited money to perpetuate their disinformation campaign," Mann believes, "I imagine it will go on, just as it went on for years and years with tobacco until it was no longer tenable--in fact, it became perjurable to get up in a public forum and claim that there was no science" behind the health hazards of smoking.

As part of his hockey-stick defense, Mann co-founded with Schmidt a Weblog called RealClimate (http://www.realclimate.org). Started in December 2004, the site has nine active scientists, who have attracted the attention of the blog cognoscenti for their writings, including critiques of Michael Crichton's State of Fear, a novel that uses charts and references to argue against anthropogenic warming. The blog is not a bypass of the ordinary channels of scientific communication, Mann explains, but "a resource where the public can go to see what actual scientists working in the field have to say about the latest issues."

The most challenging aspect today, Mann thinks, is predicting regional disruptions, because people are unlikely to take climate change seriously until they see how it operates in their backyard. In that regard, he has turned his attention to El Nino, a warming of eastern tropical Pacific waters that affects global weather. Mann notes that comparisons with the paleoclimatic record seem to confirm a mechanism proposed by other researchers. Specifically, radiative forcings--volcanic eruptions and solar changes, for instance--do in fact alter El Nino, turning it into more of a La Nina state, with colder sea-surface temperatures. Understanding how El Nino has changed with past radiative forcings is a first step to understanding how it will change in an increasingly greenhouse-gassed world.

Such efforts are essential, because the blade of Mann's hockey stick will get longer. He notes that "we're already committed to 50 to 100 years of warming and several centuries of sea-level rise, simply from the amount of greenhouse gases we've already put in the atmosphere." The solution to global warming, he observes, "is going to be finding an appropriate set of constraints on fossil-fuel emissions that allow us to slow the rate of change down to a level we can adapt to."
Fact-Man wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Reducing emissions is a very thorny problem if it is to be done within the context of the existing economic schema, which presents obstacles that are nearly impossible to overcome. This is why the schemes we’ve seen to date are so poor and doing the job. Many of them are nothing more than money grubbing schemes. I don’t think the question has been addressed in any serious way yet, we’re just dancing round the edges of it. But the day is coming when we’ll have to get serious about it, and it isn’t very far off, a decade at most.
The answer is - stop burning as much fossil fuels. Dramatically reduce that. In order to do that, we have replace the energy with energy from another source(s): nuclear, solar, wind, tidal, thermodynamic, and hydroelectric. Generate vast amounts of electricity, and power most things, including automobiles with electricity.

The thing is, the political groups have other agendas at work, some of which involve redistribution of wealth and a change in human lifestyle. They are pissing in the wind there, and just holding up the show, IMHO. What we need is a Manhattan Project for clean nuclear power, and generate gobs and gobs of it, and we should also expand the solar and wind power, etc., to make other groups happy. But, nuclear power is the only viable option for producing the amount of power that could replace the amount of power we get from fossil fuels - in my humble opinion.
It probably is, but we can also greatly reduce the amount of energy we consume if we acted more rationally in what we use. Do we really need to keep the city of Las Vegas lit up like a Christmas tree 24/7 for years on end? Not really. Tone it down, provide what’s needed with solar and wind. The auto industry (along with the fossil fuel industry) resisted more stringent CAFÉ standards and the former sued the state of California over its more stringent emissions requirements, delaying their implementation for years (Obama has finally enacted much better CAFÉ standards, they will require the fleet average to be upped to 35 mpg by 2016, well over the current actual fleet average of some 16-18 mpg, sixteen years after we knew these standards had to be made more stringent. Another dollar short and a day late.

Your assertion regarding the socialist agenda of some of the political players are irrelevant to a discussion of the science. Those things should be dealt with at the ballot box. There are always political agendas at work, left, right, and in the middle. But the science just grinds on, the earth just keeps getting warmer.

Studies have shown that any transition from a fossil fuel base to a renewable/nuclear fuel base is a 25 or 30 year project … if we go at it in a dead serious manner and fund it appropriately. And we have yet to even start.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Once again, though, the policy is made by the legislators, which is why they are ignoring the scientists. But, nevertheless, the answer is quite simple. If pollution from fossil fuels is causing global warming, then we have to stop burning fossil fuels. But, the reality is that we need the power, and we're not going voluntarily give up modern life for some agrarian hippie utopia.
This is really dumb talk, terribly uninformed. Talk about exaggeration. The only people talking this line are the deniers, who do it to convince people like you and everyone else that we should do nothing. It’s a bald faced lie that we have to transform ourselves into some agrarian hippie utopia, whatever the hell that is.

Many jurisdictions around the country and several interstate regional agreements are pushing hard for better energy efficiency and for less use through conservation. We can cut demand by some notable extent. Collectivbely, these efforts are known as being “power smart.” Building codes have been amended to require better efficiencies in the use of energy in buildings and plants.Then we have to get busy and start making the 30-year transition from fossil to renewable/nuclear ASAP and with great vigor and robust funding.

But that won’t happen so long as the fossil fuel industry sustains its propaganda campaign and its war on the science, in which it shows no sign of letting up.

It isn’t quite crunch time yet. That will come around the year 2020, when the window of time we have left to act has drawn down to the last possible moment and push does indeed come to shove. What’s a President gonna do when 36 of the world’s leading climate scientists sit in the White House and tell him the time is now, the time has come, we must start reducing emissions or there will be hell to pay in 80 years time? Is he going to say “No?”

Exxon will say “no,” and Big Coal will say it and all the deniers will say it, but those 36 scientists will know the truth and truth will be that it will be time, with not a moment to lose. What’s a President going to do? By that time the physical evidence will have accumulated into a mountain, undeniable and perfectly visible evidence, mainly in the form of ice losses and in further acidification of the oceans, and probably in even worse weather events.

What’s a President going to do?

You tell me, but I was in the WH the day that Kennedy cancelled Boeing’s SST, a multi-billion dollar undertaking Boeing was betting on to secure its future ... cancelled, fust like that. And it was cancelled because two dozen scientists sat with JFK and told him what would happen to the ozone layer if it wasn’t cancelled, and what would happen to the ozone layer was not a pretty sight, it was in fact an intolerable sight. So JFK did the right thing and cancelled the project. Boeing of course screamed bloody murder, but did not develop its SST.

Science almost always wins these battles, that’s the track record. Facts ultimately speak louder than rhetoric.
Coito ergo sum wrote: It's not the scientists I'm worried about, it's the interest groups.
Well, then, become politically active and combat them.
Coito ergo sum wrote: That's not true. Automobiles are far cleaner than they were 30 years ago. What comes out of a new car's tailpipe is not very dirty at all.
Surely you jest.

First, there are a lot more cars and trucks and airplanes, and locomotives now days, 250,000 18-wheelers rolling on America’s highways at any given time. Fuel consumption has risen, not declined. CO2 emissions have gone up, not down. An auto’s exhaust may be cleaner in terms of particulate matter but it contains as much C02 as ever. Be careful how much Exxon Kool Aid you drink. The fleet average mpg has actually gone down over the past decade, not up; hence, Obama’s new CAFÉ standards.
Fact-Man wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
and the window of time we have in which to act is an incredibly shrinking window, closing very quickly. We have about a decade.
There's the doomsday claim. I'm not sure where you get the "we have a bout a decade" from, but I heard that in 1995 too.
No, actually you didn’t hear it 1995, not from climate science you didn’t. The fact that you don’t know where the “we have about a decade” comes from shows an appalling lack of knowledge of the issue.

The notion that we only have about a decade to act comes from looking at the data on emissions, the data on the dynamics of the density of C02 in the atmosphere, and working out what’s going to happen when by applying the science to the data. We know what C02 density in the year 2020 will be, from that we can calculate what the long-term temp trend line is going to do over the next 80 years (and more). And the result of this work shows that if we are still emitting at predicted rates in the year 2020, we will have created a situation in which a 6C rise in earth’s MAT will be inevitable by the year 2100.

And a 6C rise in earth’s MAT is essentially intolerable to civilization, as we have known it.

See, that wasn’t so hard, was it?

It is of course much more complicated than this, but that’s the summary.

As I said,
Fact-Man wrote: If we don’t institute a major effort to cut emissions by 2020 we might as well not do anything, because there will be enough C02 in the atmosphere by that time to inevitably cause intolerable warming by the year 2100.
Coito ergo sum wrote: I don't know what study says that. I freely admit you may no much more than I about it. I just haven't seen it.
Well, how about doing some research and seeing it. Go to http://www.copenhagendiagnosis.com, download the report titled “The Copenhagan Diagnosis,” and give it a read.

Here’s the summary:
The most significant recent climate change findings are:

Surging greenhouse gas emissions: Global carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels in 2008 were nearly 40% higher than those in 1990. Even if global emission rates are stabilized at present-day levels, just 20 more years of emissions would give a 25% probability that warming exceeds 2°C, even with zero emissions after 2030. Every year of delayed action increases the chances of exceeding 2°C warming.

Recent global temperatures demonstrate human-induced warming: Over the past 25 years temperatures have increased at a rate of 0.19°C per decade, in very good agreement with predictions based on greenhouse gas increases. Even over the past ten years, despite a decrease in solar forcing, the trend continues to be one of warming. Natural, short-term fluctuations are occurring as usual, but there have been no significant changes in the underlying warming trend.

Acceleration of melting of ice-sheets, glaciers and ice-caps: A wide array of satellite and ice measurements now demonstrate beyond doubt that both the Greenland and Antarctic ice-sheets are losing mass at an increasing rate. Melting of glaciers and ice-caps in other parts of the world has also accelerated since 1990.

Rapid Arctic sea-ice decline: Summer-time melting of Arctic sea-ice has accelerated far beyond the expectations of climate models. The area of sea-ice melt during 2007-2009 was about 40% greater than the average prediction from IPCC AR4 climate models.

Current sea-level rise underestimated: Satellites show recent global average sea-level rise (3.4 mm/yr over the past 15 years) to be ~80% above past IPCC predictions. This acceleration in sea-level rise is consistent with a doubling in contribution from melting of glaciers, ice caps, and the Greenland and West-Antarctic ice-sheets.

Sea-level predictions revised: By 2100, global sea-level is likely to rise at least twice as much as projected by Working Group 1 of the IPCC AR4; for unmitigated emissions it may well exceed 1 meter. The upper limit has been estimated as ~ 2 meters sea level rise by 2100. Sea level will continue to rise for centuries after global temperatures have been stabilized, and several meters of sea level rise must be expected over the next few centuries.

Delay in action risks irreversible damage: Several vulnerable elements in the climate system (e.g. continental ice-sheets, Amazon rainforest, West African monsoon and others) could be pushed towards abrupt or irreversible change if warming continues in a business-as-usual way throughout this century. The risk of transgressing critical thresholds (“tipping points”) increases strongly with ongoing climate change. Thus waiting for higher levels of scientific certainty could mean that some tipping points will be crossed before they are recognized.

The turning point must come soon: If global warming is to be limited to a maximum of 2 °C above pre-industrial values, global emissions need to peak between 2015 and 2020 and then decline rapidly. To stabilize climate, a decarbonized global society – with near-zero emissions of CO2 and other long-lived greenhouse gases – needs to be reached well within this century. More specifically, the average annual per-capita emissions will have to shrink to well under 1 metric ton CO2 by 2050. This is 80-95% below the per-capita emissions in developed nations in 2000.
This report was prepared last November by climate scientists at the University of New South Wales in Australia (with an international cadre of climate scientists) at the behest of the IPCC and on their behalf. It updates what the IPCC published in its 2007 Assessment Report, AR4. It is the very latest official science from IPCC.

If you study this report you’ll see where “we have about a decade left to act” comes from and how it was derived.
Coito ergo sum wrote: But, I have the answer: Build enough nuclear power plants in the US, Canada and Mexico to power 70% of our energy needs, and get the balance from solar, wind, tidal, hydroelectic and some burning of fossil fuels which we get from our own lands.
Peachy keen, but much harder to actually do than to say, unfortunately. Try telling it to Senator Inhof or to the denialosphere or to the fossil fuel industry. I guarantee you won’t get any takers. Tell it to the people who’d have a new nuke in their backyards, no takers there either. And while you’re at it, just try to find a sufficient number of sites for new nuke plants with adequate cooling water.

Today, economics trumps the science; tomorrow may be a different deal, with "tomorrow" being 2020 or thereabouts.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Well, I never want to waste money.
No, but in America wasting money is a national pastime. George Bush spent a $trillion on a misguided war in Iraq, a war that will eventually cost $2 trillion when veteran's care is added in. Obama’s repeating the error in Afcrapistan. Waste money? How about a bridge to nowhere? How about $billion no-bid cost-plus contracts to Halliburton to serve chow to troops in Iraq? How about 19 diffrent Auditor General investigation of wasteful spending in the Iraq rebuilding effort? How about Paul Bremer losing $12 billion in cold, hard, shrink wrapped US cash when he was head of the CPA in Iraq?
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote:
Although probably large, they are not draconian nor are they beyond our means.
That would be, of course, a matter of opinion. How much do you estimate the cost would be?
I have no idea.
Then you don't know that it wouldn't be draconian or beyond our means.
Look, pal, when civilization as we have known it is at stake, nothing is too draconian or beyond our means, you kidding?

But I know enough about it to know that we can do it. The longer we wait to begin, the more it's gonna cost.
Coito ergo sum wrote: I can tell you exactly how those initial studies will come out. They'll have glamorous conclusions about how "modest" and "manageable" the costs will be to combat the "disastrous" and "civilization threatening" problem. Subsequent studies will call foul and claim they are not taking into account all the applicable costs. The left will line up with the former, and the right will line up with the latter, and we'll have a battle of the experts and finger pointing.
So? A SNAFU moment, situation normal, all fucked up. You’ve described crunch time in the year 2020. What’s a President going to do?

It will be a political choice, not a scientific one.
Fact-Man wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
For one thing nobody but the fossil fuel industry, led by Exxon, has spent $millions to confuse the public about global warming, as a leaked Exxon memo said, “Our mission is to sow doubt and confusion among the public.”
Well, the other side exaggerates and "tricks the numbers" etc., and Al Gore makes movies.
For which he won half a Nobel and an Oscar. Wake the fuck up. Don’t try to bamboozle us into thinking you’re smarter and better informed than Al Gore, the Nobel Committee or the Association of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, you’re not.

Exxon has promulgated mountains of disinformation, the science has expressed no disinformation, none, not a drop. The media has been in lock step with Exxon and its denialosphere. The science does not play “tricks” with the numbers, either, that they do is just Exxon propaganda, Big Coal Kool Aid, which dunderheads drink and absorb and regurgitate but smart people avoid like the plague.
Coito ergo sum wrote: Of course. It's a difficult topic, and so many biased and self-interested parties are fucking with both sides of the issue, that one always needs to be careful.
Read IPCC’s AR’s, read the Copenhagan Diagnosis, rely on the science.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote: Denialism has become an industrial scale movement,
As has the doomsday industry.
This is bullshit, an assertion made by a guy who’s self-admittedly and demonstratively (and woefully) under informed on the issue, which he then proves by making such a pronouncement. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote: pounding the science and its practitioner’s beyond all reason and decorum, a dirty, sordid undertaking similar to the way the tobacco industry denied that smoking is a health risk (and using some of the same people and PR firms to do it). Big Tobacco got away with it for 60 years, fossil fuel has gotten away with it for 25 years, same program, same techniques.

Their efforts have cost us 25 years during which we could have been acting.
Doing what, exactly? What would he have done?
He? Who he? I mentioned no “he’s” I said WE.

That you have to ask this question is a mind numbing proposition. Aren’t you getting any of this? Can you follow a narrative for Pete’s sake?

Let me rephrase, “Their efforts have cost us 25 years during which we could have transitioning from fossil fuels to renewables and nuclear, you know, that little 30 year project I referred to earlier, damn, we’d almost be done with it had we started 25 years ago.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote: Al Gore went to the Science Teacher’s Association of America (STAA) and offered them 50,000 copies of his movie on DVD gratis, if they’d distribute them to their members for showing in High School science classes. They turned him down. Puzzled, Gore looked into it. He discovered that Exxon was funding the STAA to the tune of $5million a year while providing them with tons of anti-global warming materials for handout to science students, and they had threatened the STAA with cutting off this funding if they accepted Gore’s gift.
Al Gore's movie is hype.
And you are full of bullshit. You're just regurgitating propaganda.

Whilst having nothing to say about Exxon funding the STAA and giving it tons of anti-GW material to distribute in science classrooms across the country?
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote: The war on climate science is a sordid, hardball affair, filled with stories like this. It makes it difficult to impossible for those who are informed about it to have any sympathy whatsoever for the fossil fuel industry, which such persons see a an enemy of the people and of all that’s right and reasonable.

They have endangered the lives of everyone and threatened the planet. They should be charged with crimes and imprisoned.

And yes they do operate in a vacume, a virtual one anyway. Consumers have no idea what they’re doing, they are asleep at the wheel, behaving mostly in an autonomic mode, reacting to massive advertising and promotion, buying whatever’s presented to them without so much as a single critical thought. Given full knowledge no sane person would drive a gas guzzler, yet millions do exactly that. We burn 13 million bbls of oil every day just to commute back and forth to work, which is 60 per cent of what we burn in total.

Your comments are quite clearly from an underinformed persona,
No they don't. Stop being patronizing.
Stop taking out of your ass, stop regurgitating denialist talking points.
Coito ergo sum wrote: Please identify the specific statement of mine that was false. Let's talk about it. Or, are you castigating me for something I didn't say? Something you assume I believe?
I’m castigating you for being woefully underinformed and talking like you’re not. I’m castigating you for confusing punditry for science and for being unable to apprehend a narrative, for having what I perceive to be a very skewed view of what’s going on and a very closed mind about realities.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
I'm not a victim of any propaganda, but I'm not an alarmist either.
All victims of propaganda think this. You won’t realize it until you do some study and open up your mind.

Define “alarmist” for me.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote: I don’t say these things to be disparaging, you are as innocent as everyone else, but the sad fact is you don’t know what the hell is going on and that’s purposeful. They don’t want you to know, and hence you don’t.
But, you are privy to the secret knowledge...
It isn’t “secret” dude but it does take a very long time to apprehend and one hell of a lot of study to get it, which I have done and you haven’t. I’ve been at this for fifteen motherfucking years, you’ve been at it what, a week? So don’t be going all smart ass on me with dumbassed comments like this.

You have to read the fookin’ science.
Coito ergo sum wrote: I guess we're fucked then. So, we better buy what you're selling now, right now, buy buy buy - or, it'll be too late - don't wanna miss this deal....won't be available tomorrow...
No, you simply have to read the science, which you clearly have not done. It is freely available on the web, there for all to see and for all to read, and for all to get. But it takes effort, and lots of it.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote: We aren’t going to stop emitting, not if the fossil fuel industry has its way (and so far it is having its way), so we’re not looking at a 2C increase in the year 2100, we're looking at more than that, up to as high as a 7C rise. And that will be an unmitigated disaster for civilization, as we know it.
Well, if people in the "green" movement really thought that, then they would stop emitting now. You don't see Al Gore or those like him doing it, do you? He and they are some of the biggest polluters on the planet. If someone REALLY thinks we have 80 or so years left to live, then they're not going to keep driving their cars, they're going to act like it. They don't.
This line of hooey is older than dirt, and as untrue as ever.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Fact-Man wrote: I don’t particularly enjoy being the bearer of bad news, but the truth is the truth and the facts are the facts and the evidence is the evidence, and none of it can be denied. We have to face it and do something about it or we will be toast, quite literally.
What do you want to do about it?
I want you to read the fuckin’ science and get a grip, that’s what. Then you can make up your own mind, you can talk about the issue and not be spewing a load of bollocks and regurgitating denialist talking points.

For starters you can think about this a little:
Scientists in stolen e-mail scandal hid climate data

Ben Webster, Environment Editor, and Jonathan Leake
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/e ... 004936.ece

The university at the centre of the climate change row over stolen e-mails broke the law by refusing to hand over its raw data for public scrutiny. The University of East Anglia breached the Freedom of Information Act by refusing to comply with requests for data concerning claims by its scientists that man-made emissions were causing global warming. The Information Commissioner’s Office decided that UEA failed in its duties under the Act but said that it could not prosecute those involved because the complaint was made too late, The Times has learnt. The ICO is now seeking to change the law to allow prosecutions if a complaint is made more than six months after a breach.

The stolen e-mails , revealed on the eve of the Copenhagen summit, showed how the university’s Climatic Research Unit attempted to thwart requests for scientific data and other information, and suggest that senior figures at the university were involved in decisions to refuse the requests. It is not known who stole the e-mails.

Professor Phil Jones, the unit’s director, stood down while an inquiry took place. The ICO’s decision could make it difficult for him to resume his post. Details of the breach emerged the day after John Beddington, the Chief Scientific Adviser, warned that there was an urgent need for more honesty about the uncertainty of some predictions. His intervention followed admissions from scientists that the rate of glacial melt in the Himalayas had been grossly exaggerated.

In one e-mail, Professor Jones asked a colleague to delete e-mails relating to the 2007 report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

He also told a colleague that he had persuaded the university authorities to ignore information requests under the act from people linked to a website run by climate sceptics.

A spokesman for the ICO said: “The legislation prevents us from taking any action but from looking at the emails it’s clear to us a breach has occurred.” Breaches of the act are punishable by an unlimited fine.

The complaint to the ICO was made by David Holland, a retired engineer from Northampton. He had been seeking information to support his theory that the unit broke the IPCC’s rules to discredit sceptic scientists.

In a statement, Graham Smith, Deputy Commissioner at the ICO, said: “The e-mails which are now public reveal that Mr Holland’s requests under the Freedom of Information Act were not dealt with as they should have been under the legislation. Section 77 of the Act makes it an offence for public authorities to act so as to prevent intentionally the disclosure of requested information.”

He added: “The ICO is gathering evidence from this and other time-barred cases to support the case for a change in the law. We will be advising the university about the importance of effective records management and their legal obligations in respect of future requests for information.”
Mr Holland said: “There is an apparent Catch-22 here. The prosecution has to be initiated within six months but you have to exhaust the university’s complaints procedure before the commission will look at your complaint. That process can take longer than six months.”

The university said: “The way freedom of information requests have been handled is one of the main areas being explored by Sir Muir Russell’s independent review. The findings will be made public and we will act as appropriate on its recommendations.”
Literally thousands of articles like this between November 2009 and late March of 2010, many making much worse accusations than are expressed here.

Then, just a few days ago, we get this:
International Panel & Royal Society Find No Fraud in “Climategate”

Posted by mattusmaximus on April 16, 2010
http://skepticalteacher.wordpress.com/2 ... imategate/

I blogged recently about the conclusion of one of three independent investigations into the so-called Climategate concerning claims of fraud and cover-up of climate science data. As I mentioned in that first entry (titled “Climategate Ends With a Fizzle”), that investigation found absolutely no evidence of fraud. Now the second investigation, conducted by an international panel of experts in conjunction with the Royal Society, has come to similar conclusions.

And here are a few key findings…
The Panel was set up by the University in consultation with the Royal Society to assess the integrity of the research published by the Climatic Research Unit in the light of various external assertions. …

We saw no evidence of any deliberate scientific malpractice in any of the work of the Climatic Research Unit and had it been there we believe that it is likely that we would have detected it. Rather we found a small group of dedicated if slightly disorganised researchers who were ill-prepared for being the focus of public attention. As with many small research groups their internal procedures were rather informal. …

We cannot help remarking that it is very surprising that research in an area that depends so heavily on statistical methods has not been carried out in close collaboration with professional statisticians. Indeed there would be mutual benefit if there were closer collaboration and interaction between CRU and a much wider scientific group outside the relatively small international circle of temperature specialists. …

It was not the immediate concern of the Panel, but we observed that there were important and unresolved questions that related to the availability of environmental data sets. It was pointed out that since UK government adopted a policy that resulted in charging for access to data sets collected by government agencies, other countries have followed suit impeding the flow of processed and raw data to and between researchers. This is unfortunate and seems inconsistent with policies of open access to data promoted elsewhere in government. …

A host of important unresolved questions also arises from the application of Freedom of Information legislation in an academic context. We agree with the CRU view that the authority for releasing unpublished raw data to third parties should stay with those who collected it. …
And you should be aware that CRU received two or three FOI requests in each of the years 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008, and more than 60 in 2009, when the denialosphere inundated the agency with requests, most of which were frivolus and many of which sought data that the agency was under legal consraints to release.

And this:
Climategate Probe Finds No Evidence of Scientific Malpractice

By Alex Morales
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... lcXLsrxPys

April 14 (Bloomberg) -- An investigation by a panel of scientists into the so-called climategate leaked e-mail flap found no evidence of scientific malpractice at the University of East Anglia, the U.K. school at the center of the probe.

The inquiry, the second of three into research at the school in eastern England, said methods used by the university to compile historical records of global temperatures were “fair and satisfactory.” It also said allegations of deliberate misrepresentation of data derived from tree rings weren’t valid.

“There was no hint of tailoring results to a particular agenda,” the scientists said in a report posted today on the school’s Web site. “Their sole aim was to establish as robust a record of temperatures in recent centuries as possible.”

Thousands of e-mails stolen from the school’s server in November showed scientists discussing a “trick” to hide a decline in temperatures and blocking some papers from inclusion in the most comprehensive United Nations report into climate change. That fuelled criticism from skeptics of man’s contribution to global warming of data being manipulated.

The panel said the school’s “sins were of omission rather than commission” in not keeping fuller records of their methods. They also said the scientists should work more closely with professional statisticians carrying out their analysis of temperatures.

“We do see the sense in engaging more fully with the wider statistics community to ensure that the most effective and up- to-date statistical techniques are adopted and will now consider further how best to achieve this,” the university said in a statement on its Web site.

Further Investigations
The probe was carried out by a panel of six scientists based at universities in the U.K., U.S. and Switzerland and was chaired by Ron Oxburgh, former chairman of Shell Transport & Trading Plc and a member of the U.K. House of Lords, Parliament’s upper chamber. They were appointed by the university at the recommendation of the Royal Society, the U.K.’s national science academy.

A first investigation into the scandal, carried out by Parliament’s Science and Technology Committee, said on March 31 that Britain’s global-warming scientists damaged their reputation with the “unacceptable” withholding of data in response to freedom of information requests. Their 59-page report cleared Phil Jones, head of UEA’s Climatic Research Unit, of wrongdoing, saying he acted “in line with common practice” in not publishing all his methods and computer codes.

Today’s report was into the science produced by the university. The school has also commissioned an investigation into the content of the leaked e-mails to determine whether there is any evidence of manipulation of scientific data.

That review, led by Muir Russell, former Vice Chancellor of Glasgow University in Scotland, is due to report in the spring, according to UEA. It said no specific date has been established.
U.K. police are also investigating who hacked into the e- mails.

To contact the reporter on this story: Alex Morales in London at amorales2@bloomberg.net.
[/quote]
A tsunami of all sort and manner of accusations of wrongdoing in January, a clean bill of health in April.

That ought to tell you something, albeit you would have to think to arrive at it, you'd have to learn how to connect the dots.

Go read the science, get yourself up to speed, then come back and we'll chat about it. If you want to discuss this further with me, that's what you'll have to do. I'm a busy guy, too busy for the woefully underinformed and heavily propagandized.

It's never smart to try to carry on a discourse on a topic one is unfamilar with and not fully knowledgeable of. That's what you're doing here. You aren't qualified to discuss any of this, that's the tragic and painful reality. Face it and do something about it. This is not kid's stuff.
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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by JimC » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:53 am

Fact-Man wrote:

...And you are full of bullshit...
In a long, detailed post that managed to attack arguments and avoid ad-homs most of the time, this slipped through...

Please be more careful in future, because this has edged over the line into the personal attack territory.
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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Twiglet » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:23 am

+1 one to everything fact-man had to say on the science in the fantastic post above. The information on climate science is directly available first hand to anyone who wants to access it. There is no need to rely on second hand interpretations from the media or politicians, which most of the time are indistinguishable from corporate interest echo-chambers.

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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Rum » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:35 am

Personally I am with those who support the man caused global warming agenda, however it is worth saying that with large and complex issues supported with complex science it isn't always realistic to read the evidence or discussions in great detail. This applies to any number of areas, from cosmology to subatomic physics. So for many 'rational' people they find themselves having to make a judgement and in effect taking a position, or at least suspend judgement (not an easy thing for most people to do) on what amounts to 'faith' or at least, given how loaded that word is here, on intuition.

My intuition/judgement/belief is that man made global warning is a massive threat, but I am not an expert.

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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Fact-Man » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:52 pm

Nineteen thousand scientists say GW is not a "hoax," 70 say it is.
On the Hoax of the Climate Change Hoax

By Jake Whitney
Posted: April 23, 2010 11:11 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jake-whit ... 48725.html

Climate change 'skeptics' have been singing a victory song in recent months. Emboldened by this winter's record snow, errors in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's 2007 report, and the phony scandal they dubbed 'ClimateGate,' their growing clamor has taken a toll on public acceptance. According to a Gallup poll released last month, Americans are now about evenly split on whether the threat of global warming is exaggerated and whether scientists agree on its causes and dangers. This in the face of clear scientific consensus.

Ninety seven percent of climatologists agreed that climate change is real and largely man-made in a poll released last year. At least 60 major scientific organizations across the globe also concur, while not one of any repute holds an opposing opinion. (A few have not yet committed.) As to the list of 700 dissenting scientists that Senator Inhofe and other skeptics frequently cite, an analysis by the Center for Inquiry found that less than 10 percent of them were climate scientists, and only about 15 percent had ever been published in peer-reviewed climate science literature. Moreover, another four percent seemed to agree with the scientific consensus and so were, presumably, mistakenly included. One of the "scientists" turned out to be a Kentucky weatherman without a college degree.

So that list of 700 actually amounts to less than 70 legitimate climate scientists, which, when measured against the approximately 19,000 that compose consensus, doesn't exactly equal an even debate. But didn't 'ClimateGate' prove scientists were fudging the numbers? No.

'ClimateGate' refers to the illegal hacking of more than a thousand emails from England's Climate Research Unit, at the University of East Anglia. Initial news reports described the emails as discussions between prominent climatologists of how to suppress data from critics. Admittedly, several of the emails sounded sketchy, like the one that said: "I've just completed Mike's Nature trick...and from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline." Thorough analyses of the messages, however -- particularly from the Associated Press and a British Parliamentary committee -- found no effort to suppress data. So the "scandal" turned out to be a misinterpretation of a few words in a few stolen emails. But that hasn't stopped skeptics from declaring ClimateGate to be the smoking gun they'd expected all along.

So let's talk about motive. This, outside of the science itself, is the crux of the "debate." If you believe man-made global warming is a farce, you must believe one of two things: that thousands of climate experts across the globe have made one gigantic mistake, or they are part of a conspiracy. Based on the vitriolic missives posted by skeptics across the blogosphere, an astounding number believes in conspiracy. So what is the motive of the conspirators? Money, skeptics say: if you're a scientist who "advocates" global warming, you'll get rewarded with research money.

This is ridiculous. It is certainly true that money can lead to scientific bias (just look at pharmaceutical research), but as a motive for conspiracy here it's laughable. The climate change consensus comprises thousands of scientists from at least 130 countries. While some American climatologists who believe in man-made global warming have seen increased funding -- as they should -- we don't know if climatologists in all the other countries have seen the same. In any case it's not clear that increased government funding here in America has led to an outbreak of millionaire climatologists.

So is it more likely that thousands of loosely affiliated climate scientists from 130 countries are involved in one giant scam for no discernable reason or...that multi-billion dollar fossil-fuel interests and other polluting corporations are manufacturing doubt and spreading disinformation because they don't want to change their ways? I'd wager on the latter -- not least of all because it's happened before: Big Tobacco funded phony research for years in order to claim that "the science wasn't settled" on the link between tobacco use and cancer. Sound familiar? Not to mention that ExxonMobil has admitted to funding doubt about climate change.

But it's not just corporations that don't want to change their ways, it's us too. On a personal level, it's easier to believe man-made global warming is a fraud because then we won't have to assume responsibility for our own carbon footprint, which could mean making inconvenient lifestyle changes: trading in that luxurious gas-guzzler for something more fuel-efficient, or cutting back on consumption in general. These are sacrifices some people don't want to make.

If there is a speck of validity in questioning the reality of man-made climate change, it is because scientists are not infallible, and it is possible that climatologists are missing something here. But you can't acknowledge that without also acknowledging the time-tested rigor of modern science and all that it has accomplished -- and that it is far more likely that science is right here. So many things about America that Republicans, the political party of the skeptics, boast so loudly about -- our military might, our technological innovation, our advanced medicine -- were made possible by modern science. And yet with climate science they have the hubris to presume to know more than the scientists; to assert that a few weeks of snow unravels a theory based upon mountains of data collected over decades.

Science is rarely about certainties. More often it's about examining the best evidence and making educated observations and smart decisions based upon it. In the case of climate science, the best evidence, as voiced by the most scientists, says that global warming is real, humans are fueling it, and it is dangerous. To do nothing -- especially when the solutions will only benefit us in the long run by increasing our energy independence -- is not only stupid but irresponsible. And, as Joseph Romm, who runs the Web site climateprogress.org, told me in an interview for Guernica Magazine: "Future generations won't understand it. They won't understand how people could be actively shouting 'No Fire' in a burning building and attacking the credibility of the fire department."
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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Twiglet » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:09 pm

I can picture the situation in 20 years time, where politicians and the aged adult population of today complain in the media that "the science failed to convince them between 1990-2030" when faced with the need to explain why nothing was done. Revisionism will take place because that's vastly easier than accepting responsibility, either now or in the future.

Can we expect a civillian population which is enculturated to consumerism and quick-fix entertaiment to encourage a political elite to act on it's behalf, when the very same political and business elites have conditioned consumerism and faith over reason in the first place?

My own intuition on the future is that the controlling business and political interests suffer no illusions about what the science means and the outcomes we all will face. They are preparing for it right now by encouraging fundamentalism and patriotism, passing ever more draconian legislation to erode civil rights in the name of suppressing "terrorism" while blooding an army in Iraq to ruthlessly suppress a civillian population in direct preparation for what may be needed on the home front. At the same time, the western nations are doing their best to exert as much control as possible over declining amounts of fossil fuels while those last, which is a bit of a double bonus.

Governments and businesses are not generally stupid or myopic. The question becomes whose interests they are serving and how. That's best judged by what they do, rather than what they say - and assuming they are not (internally) involved in the ridiculous denial debate being played out in the public domain, the actions they are taking seem ever more sinister from where I sit.

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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Fact-Man » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:14 pm

Rum wrote:Personally I am with those who support the man caused global warming agenda, however it is worth saying that with large and complex issues supported with complex science it isn't always realistic to read the evidence or discussions in great detail. This applies to any number of areas, from cosmology to subatomic physics. So for many 'rational' people they find themselves having to make a judgement and in effect taking a position, or at least suspend judgement (not an easy thing for most people to do) on what amounts to 'faith' or at least, given how loaded that word is here, on intuition.

My intuition/judgement/belief is that man made global warning is a massive threat, but I am not an expert.
This is all well and good ... assuming one does not wish to speak on the issue.

But if one does want to speak on the issue it is incumbent upon them to inform themselves about it and to study its science to a sufficient degree to apprehend its fundamental nature and its crucial details.

Fortunately in climate science, the science is freely available on the web in the form of PDFs that are easily downloaded by anyone on the planet. By this I mean the IPCC's Assessment Reports, which are published every five years, often with more frequent updates in the periods between the reports. Assessment Reports are the official word of the climate science community, they speak for the science and they alone speak for it. And there are literally thousands of peer-reviewed papers on the web that address and speak to very specific aspects of the climate problem below the level of the discussions and data that are set forth in IPCC's assessment reports. In fact, the IPCC processes some 10,000 such papers every five years.

Hence there is literally no excuse for anyone not being well informed on the issue. Intuition is no substitute for good science, nor is politically or economically motivated rhetoric.

If we want to live in and operate a high tech, knowledge-driven society and enjoy its benefits, we probably all have to become more scientifically literate. That's just the price of progress and what price glory anyway? Are we going to just trust our scientists and engineers and researchers and let it go at that? Well, one can do this if they wish, but again if they assume this stance they constrain themselves from speaking on issues.

I wouldn't criticize anyone who decided they were going to assume the trust stance, provided they did not at the same time offer views of the issues beyond their own overall intuitive sense of them, such as you have done here.
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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Twiglet » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:27 pm

Fact-Man wrote:Hence there is literally no excuse for anyone not being well informed on the issue. Intuition is no substitute for good science, nor is politically or economically motivated rhetoric.
I think the public understanding of these issues is inseparable from politics and economics. Of course, a reason is not an excuse.
I wouldn't criticize anyone who decided they were going to assume the trust stance, provided they did not at the same time offer views of the issues beyond their own overall intuitive sense of them, such as you have done here.
The trouble with trust is that it applies case by case, not as an absolute, and deciding what to trust isn't easy, and is harder still the less scientifically literate someone is. A drug company may say a product is safe because their tests haven't found side effects. A doctor might write in a journal that MMR vacines cause autism... so on what basis does someone confer trust?

I very strongly agree that the public should defer to scientific knowledge, but lacking a framework to accurately confer trust, how hard of an ask does that become?

The only way out of that paradox is to encourage people to get the knowledge they need to make good evaluations themselves, but from where I sit, that is not just about science. It's about politics and economics too, Scientists research what they are paid to research, and some scientists, especially those in industry, are a lot more vocal when what they discover is useful to whoever is paying their wages.

This has been a persistent argument for academic independence from industry, and the debate over university funding and I think it is extremely pertinent to climate science.

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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Reverend Blair » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:41 pm

Twiglet wrote:
Fact-Man wrote:Hence there is literally no excuse for anyone not being well informed on the issue. Intuition is no substitute for good science, nor is politically or economically motivated rhetoric.
I think the public understanding of these issues is inseparable from politics and economics. Of course, a reason is not an excuse.
I wouldn't criticize anyone who decided they were going to assume the trust stance, provided they did not at the same time offer views of the issues beyond their own overall intuitive sense of them, such as you have done here.
The trouble with trust is that it applies case by case, not as an absolute, and deciding what to trust isn't easy, and is harder still the less scientifically literate someone is. A drug company may say a product is safe because their tests haven't found side effects. A doctor might write in a journal that MMR vacines cause autism... so on what basis does someone confer trust?

I very strongly agree that the public should defer to scientific knowledge, but lacking a framework to accurately confer trust, how hard of an ask does that become?

The only way out of that paradox is to encourage people to get the knowledge they need to make good evaluations themselves, but from where I sit, that is not just about science. It's about politics and economics too, Scientists research what they are paid to research, and some scientists, especially those in industry, are a lot more vocal when what they discover is useful to whoever is paying their wages.

This has been a persistent argument for academic independence from industry, and the debate over university funding and I think it is extremely pertinent to climate science.
I agree that politics and economics play a huge role in this. The science is clear...global warming is happening and we're causing it...and that makes it time for fact-based political and economic action.

There was recently a very short and inadequate discussion in Canada about whether the government should fund directed or undirected research. The Canadian government...anti-science cretins with a creationist as science minister...shut down the discussion by advertising what they were doing as being "common sense" and stating that science needed direction to be economically feasible. Of course they have no idea how science really works, but they do know who bought them their seats. That'd be the oil and gas industry and the fundamentalist Christians. So they say that reducing emissions would bring about an economic collapse.

The result is that we get no fact-based political or economic action from them. The closest they got was letting one of their former MPs illegally peddle influence to a gangster who was running a scam on companies with green technologies who wanted to go public. At this point, indications are that the gangster paid off the former MP with a bag of coke and access to some busty hookers.

Of course the economic collapse claim is bullshit. Not once in the history of our species was there a technological shift that led to people being poorer. From the sharpened stick to the computer/internet revolution, people became wealthier when technology advanced. The thing about green technologies is that they have a negative economic impact not on people in general, but on those who got rich on the old technologies. Those are the same people who run the economy and most of the politics on this planet.

So from where I sit, perhaps you can understand why I doubt we'll take any real action until it is far too late.

The scientists are doing good science. They've defined the problem and continue to monitor it and give us fact-based updates. They have massive amounts of data to back up what they say. Governments aren't taking it seriously though. Obama, who looks very much like he wants to do something, doesn't dare piss off the coal industry or their workers. If he were to do that, he'd be gone. Stephen Harper takes a lot of donations out of the tar sands and has been actively undermining the science since he was in opposition. When you look around the world...whether China or the US or Australia or Canada or Europe or Africa...the message is the same. If we try to go green, the corporations will shut down the politicians who are trying to do something.

I keep trying anyway, but more and more I'm wondering why. Perhaps we need a doomsday, something that takes our species out of it's top spot. Thing is that it won't be those rich bastards who suffer when that happens, it'll be the rest of us.

Oh well, I have to go put new trim on my garage now.

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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Fact-Man » Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:34 pm

Twiglet wrote:
Fact-Man wrote:Hence there is literally no excuse for anyone not being well informed on the issue. Intuition is no substitute for good science, nor is politically or economically motivated rhetoric.
I think the public understanding of these issues is inseparable from politics and economics. Of course, a reason is not an excuse.
Well, indeed they are largely inseparable, or they go hand-in-hand. But, one thing at a time. First comes a good understanding of the science, as a foundation. That can be followed by developing an understanding of the context in which the science is occurring and playing out, the political and economic dimensions.

In Canada and the US part of the problem is that scientific knowledge is nowhere celebrated as something important to possess, scientists are characterized as oddities or "absent minded professors" or nerds. There's very little by way of science discussions in the media or leadership on scientific topics on the part of politicians. The model in today's culture is a sports-action character, a super cop, or a top flight entertainer. Scientists are way down that list, if they're even on it.

I'd like to see a national tour by a group of good climate scientists conducting workshops and seminars, teaching the science in a non-political, non-confrontational context, urging local science teachers to do the same and teaching them how to do it, under the auspecies of some neutral NGO or something.
Twiglet wrote:
I wouldn't criticize anyone who decided they were going to assume the trust stance, provided they did not at the same time offer views of the issues beyond their own overall intuitive sense of them, such as you have done here.
The trouble with trust is that it applies case by case, not as an absolute, and deciding what to trust isn't easy, and is harder still the less scientifically literate someone is. A drug company may say a product is safe because their tests haven't found side effects. A doctor might write in a journal that MMR vacines cause autism... so on what basis does someone confer trust?
It is difficult, no question about it. Government run websites could provide a lot of objective information in medical fields and especially with regard to drugs and pharmaceuticals, as we see done by NASA, NOAA, and the EPA now. Maybe FDA does some of this now, I don't know. But in any case we need some natiomnal efforts to raise scintific literacy and this seems unlikely to occur in our culture, which tends more to shun scientific knowledge. I think it does so at grat risk to its vitality and, ultimately, its success.
Twiglet wrote:
I very strongly agree that the public should defer to scientific knowledge, but lacking a framework to accurately confer trust, how hard of an ask does that become?
"Task" or "ask"?

The public defers to science every minute in today's world, albeit they do so unthinkingly, unconsciously. Every time they climb aboard an airliner they are trusting science; they trust science when they expect their electricity to be ON twenty-four-seven. They trust science when they expect the air they breath or the water they drink to be clean. They are not only implicitly trusting science they are doing the same witb governance, trusting that the FDA and other agencies will ensure that their food is clean and unadulerated, for example. There's a huge amount of de facto trust.
Twiglet wrote:
The only way out of that paradox is to encourage people to get the knowledge they need to make good evaluations themselves, but from where I sit, that is not just about science. It's about politics and economics too, Scientists research what they are paid to research, and some scientists, especially those in industry, are a lot more vocal when what they discover is useful to whoever is paying their wages.

This has been a persistent argument for academic independence from industry, and the debate over university funding and I think it is extremely pertinent to climate science.
I don't think our culture is a scientific one, it's all wrapped up in consumerism, making money, and trying to "be somebody," and cults of personality and celebrity. There's no central role for science. Most Americans and Canadians think they can get along just fine without science, and yet they'd be in deep dung without it if it happened to disappear altogether, they'd be toast in a hurry.

Our entire way of economic life is not scientific and in fact harks back several hundred years to the pre-science era; our economic system is unscientific despite the fact that a lot of science is used in many of its sectors and operations. It's characterized by 17th century wheeling and dealing, by buying and selling at an advantage over others, and by risk taking and market manipulations. This sets the stage for a very unscientific culture to rule and to dominate the social scene.

The great scientific institutions that came into being after 1950, National Science Foundation, NASA, the NIH, America's National Laboratories, and others, barely sustain themselves in today's heavily unscientific economy. The only saving grace are the Universities, along with what science these national institutions manage to get done (and it is of course far from zero).

I dunno, it's a complicated matter. I do think, however, that our archaic economic system is the root cause of science being such a distant runner in the public arena. The economy's woeful performamce in recent times and the present discombooberated debates going on about how to reform it seem proof enough to me that it's time for very radical change in economy. We have to modernize and if we don't I think the whole shebang will eventually go down the shitter.
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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Fact-Man » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:18 am

This will shed some light on a few things discussed in earlier posts, the costs of transitioning to renewables for example but on the question of timing as well.
Building a Green Economy

by Paul Krugman
Published: April 5, 2010, New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/magaz ... gewanted=1

If you listen to climate scientists — and despite the relentless campaign to discredit their work, you should — it is long past time to do something about emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. If we continue with business as usual, they say, we are facing a rise in global temperatures that will be little short of apocalyptic. And to avoid that apocalypse, we have to wean our economy from the use of fossil fuels, coal above all.

But is it possible to make drastic cuts in greenhouse-gas emissions without destroying our economy?
Like the debate over climate change itself, the debate over climate economics looks very different from the inside than it often does in popular media. The casual reader might have the impression that there are real doubts about whether emissions can be reduced without inflicting severe damage on the economy. In fact, once you filter out the noise generated by special-interest groups, you discover that there is widespread agreement among environmental economists that a market-based program to deal with the threat of climate change — one that limits carbon emissions by putting a price on them — can achieve large results at modest, though not trivial, cost. There is, however, much less agreement on how fast we should move, whether major conservation efforts should start almost immediately or be gradually increased over the course of many decades.

In what follows, I will offer a brief survey of the economics of climate change or, more precisely, the economics of lessening climate change. I’ll try to lay out the areas of broad agreement as well as those that remain in major dispute. First, though, a primer in the basic economics of environmental protection.

Environmental Econ 101
If there’s a single central insight in economics, it’s this: There are mutual gains from transactions between consenting adults. If the going price of widgets is $10 and I buy a widget, it must be because that widget is worth more than $10 to me. If you sell a widget at that price, it must be because it costs you less than $10 to make it. So buying and selling in the widget market works to the benefit of both buyers and sellers. More than that, some careful analysis shows that if there is effective competition in the widget market, so that the price ends up matching the number of widgets people want to buy to the number of widgets other people want to sell, the outcome is to maximize the total gains to producers and consumers. Free markets are “efficient” — which, in economics-speak as opposed to plain English, means that nobody can be made better off without making someone else worse off.

Now, efficiency isn’t everything. In particular, there is no reason to assume that free markets will deliver an outcome that we consider fair or just. So the case for market efficiency says nothing about whether we should have, say, some form of guaranteed health insurance, aid to the poor and so forth. But the logic of basic economics says that we should try to achieve social goals through “aftermarket” interventions. That is, we should let markets do their job, making efficient use of the nation’s resources, then utilize taxes and transfers to help those whom the market passes by.

But what if a deal between consenting adults imposes costs on people who are not part of the exchange? What if you manufacture a widget and I buy it, to our mutual benefit, but the process of producing that widget involves dumping toxic sludge into other people’s drinking water? When there are “negative externalities” — costs that economic actors impose on others without paying a price for their actions — any presumption that the market economy, left to its own devices, will do the right thing goes out the window. So what should we do? Environmental economics is all about answering that question.

One way to deal with negative externalities is to make rules that prohibit or at least limit behavior that imposes especially high costs on others. That’s what we did in the first major wave of environmental legislation in the early 1970s: cars were required to meet emission standards for the chemicals that cause smog, factories were required to limit the volume of effluent they dumped into waterways and so on. And this approach yielded results; America’s air and water became a lot cleaner in the decades that followed.

But while the direct regulation of activities that cause pollution makes sense in some cases, it is seriously defective in others, because it does not offer any scope for flexibility and creativity. Consider the biggest environmental issue of the 1980s — acid rain. Emissions of sulfur dioxide from power plants, it turned out, tend to combine with water downwind and produce flora- and wildlife-destroying sulfuric acid. In 1977, the government made its first stab at confronting the issue, recommending that all new coal-fired plants have scrubbers to remove sulfur dioxide from their emissions. Imposing a tough standard on all plants was problematic, because retrofitting some older plants would have been extremely expensive. By regulating only new plants, however, the government passed up the opportunity to achieve fairly cheap pollution control at plants that were, in fact, easy to retrofit. Short of a de facto federal takeover of the power industry, with federal officials issuing specific instructions to each plant, how was this conundrum to be resolved?

Enter Arthur Cecil Pigou, an early-20th-century British don, whose 1920 book, “The Economics of Welfare,” is generally regarded as the ur-text of environmental economics.
Somewhat surprisingly, given his current status as a godfather of economically sophisticated environmentalism, Pigou didn’t actually stress the problem of pollution. Rather than focusing on, say, London’s famous fog (actually acrid smog, caused by millions of coal fires), he opened his discussion with an example that must have seemed twee even in 1920, a hypothetical case in which “the game-preserving activities of one occupier involve the overrunning of a neighboring occupier’s land by rabbits.” But never mind. What Pigou enunciated was a principle: economic activities that impose unrequited costs on other people should not always be banned, but they should be discouraged. And the right way to curb an activity, in most cases, is to put a price on it. So Pigou proposed that people who generate negative externalities should have to pay a fee reflecting the costs they impose on others — what has come to be known as a Pigovian tax. The simplest version of a Pigovian tax is an effluent fee: anyone who dumps pollutants into a river, or emits them into the air, must pay a sum proportional to the amount dumped.

Pigou’s analysis lay mostly fallow for almost half a century, as economists spent their time grappling with issues that seemed more pressing, like the Great Depression. But with the rise of environmental regulation, economists dusted off Pigou and began pressing for a “market-based” approach that gives the private sector an incentive, via prices, to limit pollution, as opposed to a “command and control” fix that issues specific instructions in the form of regulations.

The initial reaction by many environmental activists to this idea was hostile, largely on moral grounds. Pollution, they felt, should be treated like a crime rather than something you have the right to do as long as you pay enough money. Moral concerns aside, there was also considerable skepticism about whether market incentives would actually be successful in reducing pollution. Even today, Pigovian taxes as originally envisaged are relatively rare. The most successful example I’ve been able to find is a Dutch tax on discharges of water containing organic materials.

What has caught on instead is a variant that most economists consider more or less equivalent: a system of tradable emissions permits, a k a cap and trade. In this model, a limited number of licenses to emit a specified pollutant, like sulfur dioxide, are issued. A business that wants to create more pollution than it is licensed for can go out and buy additional licenses from other parties; a firm that has more licenses than it intends to use can sell its surplus. This gives everyone an incentive to reduce pollution, because buyers would not have to acquire as many licenses if they can cut back on their emissions, and sellers can unload more licenses if they do the same. In fact, economically, a cap-and-trade system produces the same incentives to reduce pollution as a Pigovian tax, with the price of licenses effectively serving as a tax on pollution.

In practice there are a couple of important differences between cap and trade and a pollution tax. One is that the two systems produce different types of uncertainty. If the government imposes a pollution tax, polluters know what price they will have to pay, but the government does not know how much pollution they will generate. If the government imposes a cap, it knows the amount of pollution, but polluters do not know what the price of emissions will be. Another important difference has to do with government revenue. A pollution tax is, well, a tax, which imposes costs on the private sector while generating revenue for the government. Cap and trade is a bit more complicated. If the government simply auctions off licenses and collects the revenue, then it is just like a tax. Cap and trade, however, often involves handing out licenses to existing players, so the potential revenue goes to industry instead of the government.

Politically speaking, doling out licenses to industry isn’t entirely bad, because it offers a way to partly compensate some of the groups whose interests would suffer if a serious climate-change policy were adopted. This can make passing legislation more feasible.

These political considerations probably explain why the solution to the acid-rain predicament took the form of cap and trade and why licenses to pollute were distributed free to power companies. It’s also worth noting that the Waxman-Markey bill, a cap-and-trade setup for greenhouse gases that starts by giving out many licenses to industry but puts up a growing number for auction in later years, was actually passed by the House of Representatives last year; it’s hard to imagine a broad-based emissions tax doing the same for many years.

That’s not to say that emission taxes are a complete nonstarter. Some senators have recently floated a proposal for a sort of hybrid solution, with cap and trade for some parts of the economy and carbon taxes for others — mainly oil and gas. The political logic seems to be that the oil industry thinks consumers won’t blame it for higher gas prices if those prices reflect an explicit tax.

In any case, experience suggests that market-based emission controls work. Our recent history with acid rain shows as much. The Clean Air Act of 1990 introduced a cap-and-trade system in which power plants could buy and sell the right to emit sulfur dioxide, leaving it up to individual companies to manage their own business within the new limits. Sure enough, over time sulfur-dioxide emissions from power plants were cut almost in half, at a much lower cost than even optimists expected; electricity prices fell instead of rising. Acid rain did not disappear as a problem, but it was significantly mitigated. The results, it would seem, demonstrated that we can deal with environmental problems when we have to.

So there we have it, right? The emission of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases is a classic negative externality — the “biggest market failure the world has ever seen,” in the words of Nicholas Stern, the author of a report on the subject for the British government. Textbook economics and real-world experience tell us that we should have policies to discourage activities that generate negative externalities and that it is generally best to rely on a market-based approach.

Climate of Doubt?
This is an article on climate economics, not climate science. But before we get to the economics, it’s worth establishing three things about the state of the scientific debate.

The first is that the planet is indeed warming. Weather fluctuates, and as a consequence it’s easy enough to point to an unusually warm year in the recent past, note that it’s cooler now and claim, “See, the planet is getting cooler, not warmer!” But if you look at the evidence the right way ­— taking averages over periods long enough to smooth out the fluctuations — the upward trend is unmistakable: each successive decade since the 1970s has been warmer than the one before.

Second, climate models predicted this well in advance, even getting the magnitude of the temperature rise roughly right. While it’s relatively easy to cook up an analysis that matches known data, it is much harder to create a model that accurately forecasts the future. So the fact that climate modelers more than 20 years ago successfully predicted the subsequent global warming gives them enormous credibility.

Yet that’s not the conclusion you might draw from the many media reports that have focused on matters like hacked e-mail and climate scientists’ talking about a “trick” to “hide” an anomalous decline in one data series or expressing their wish to see papers by climate skeptics kept out of research reviews. The truth, however, is that the supposed scandals evaporate on closer examination, revealing only that climate researchers are human beings, too. Yes, scientists try to make their results stand out, but no data were suppressed. Yes, scientists dislike it when work that they think deliberately obfuscates the issues gets published. What else is new? Nothing suggests that there should not continue to be strong support for climate research.

And this brings me to my third point: models based on this research indicate that if we continue adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere as we have, we will eventually face drastic changes in the climate. Let’s be clear. We’re not talking about a few more hot days in the summer and a bit less snow in the winter; we’re talking about massively disruptive events, like the transformation of the Southwestern United States into a permanent dust bowl over the next few decades.
Now, despite the high credibility of climate modelers, there is still tremendous uncertainty in their long-term forecasts. But as we will see shortly, uncertainty makes the case for action stronger, not weaker. So climate change demands action. Is a cap-and-trade program along the lines of the model used to reduce sulfur dioxide the right way to go?

Serious opposition to cap and trade generally comes in two forms: an argument that more direct action — in particular, a ban on coal-fired power plants — would be more effective and an argument that an emissions tax would be better than emissions trading. (Let’s leave aside those who dismiss climate science altogether and oppose any limits on greenhouse-gas emissions, as well as those who oppose the use of any kind of market-based remedy.) There’s something to each of these positions, just not as much as their proponents think.

When it comes to direct action, you can make the case that economists love markets not wisely but too well, that they are too ready to assume that changing people’s financial incentives fixes every problem. In particular, you can’t put a price on something unless you can measure it accurately, and that can be both difficult and expensive. So sometimes it’s better simply to lay down some basic rules about what people can and cannot do.

Consider auto emissions, for example. Could we or should we charge each car owner a fee proportional to the emissions from his or her tailpipe? Surely not. You would have to install expensive monitoring equipment on every car, and you would also have to worry about fraud. It’s almost certainly better to do what we actually do, which is impose emissions standards on all cars.

Is there a comparable argument to be made for greenhouse-gas emissions? My initial reaction, which I suspect most economists would share, is that the very scale and complexity of the situation requires a market-based solution, whether cap and trade or an emissions tax. After all, greenhouse gases are a direct or indirect byproduct of almost everything produced in a modern economy, from the houses we live in to the cars we drive. Reducing emissions of those gases will require getting people to change their behavior in many different ways, some of them impossible to identify until we have a much better grasp of green technology. So can we really make meaningful progress by telling people specifically what will or will not be permitted? Econ 101 tells us — probably correctly — that the only way to get people to change their behavior appropriately is to put a price on emissions so this cost in turn gets incorporated into everything else in a way that reflects ultimate environmental impacts.

When shoppers go to the grocery store, for example, they will find that fruits and vegetables from farther away have higher prices than local produce, reflecting in part the cost of emission licenses or taxes paid to ship that produce. When businesses decide how much to spend on insulation, they will take into account the costs of heating and air-conditioning that include the price of emissions licenses or taxes for electricity generation. When electric utilities have to choose among energy sources, they will have to take into account the higher license fees or taxes associated with fossil-fuel consumption. And so on down the line. A market-based system would create decentralized incentives to do the right thing, and that’s the only way it can be done.

That said, some specific rules may be required. James Hansen, the renowned climate scientist who deserves much of the credit for making global warming an issue in the first place, has argued forcefully that most of the climate-change problem comes down to just one thing, burning coal, and that whatever else we do, we have to shut down coal burning over the next couple decades. My economist’s reaction is that a stiff license fee would strongly discourage coal use anyway. But a market-based system might turn out to have loopholes — and their consequences could be dire. So I would advocate supplementing market-based disincentives with direct controls on coal burning.
What about the case for an emissions tax rather than cap and trade? There’s no question that a straightforward tax would have many advantages over legislation like Waxman-Markey, which is full of exceptions and special situations. But that’s not really a useful comparison: of course an idealized emissions tax looks better than a cap-and-trade system that has already passed the House with all its attendant compromises. The question is whether the emissions tax that could actually be put in place is better than cap and trade. There is no reason to believe that it would be — indeed, there is no reason to believe that a broad-based emissions tax would make it through Congress.

To be fair, Hansen has made an interesting moral argument against cap and trade, one that’s much more sophisticated than the old view that it’s wrong to let polluters buy the right to pollute. What Hansen draws attention to is the fact that in a cap-and-trade world, acts of individual virtue do not contribute to social goals. If you choose to drive a hybrid car or buy a house with a small carbon footprint, all you are doing is freeing up emissions permits for someone else, which means that you have done nothing to reduce the threat of climate change. He has a point. But altruism cannot effectively deal with climate change. Any serious solution must rely mainly on creating a system that gives everyone a self-interested reason to produce fewer emissions. It’s a shame, but climate altruism must take a back seat to the task of getting such a system in place.

The bottom line, then, is that while climate change may be a vastly bigger problem than acid rain, the logic of how to respond to it is much the same. What we need are market incentives for reducing greenhouse-gas emissions — along with some direct controls over coal use — and cap and trade is a reasonable way to create those incentives.

But can we afford to do that? Equally important, can we afford not to?

The Cost of Action
Just as there is a rough consensus among climate modelers about the likely trajectory of temperatures if we do not act to cut the emissions of greenhouse gases, there is a rough consensus among economic modelers about the costs of action. That general opinion may be summed up as follows: Restricting emissions would slow economic growth — but not by much. The Congressional Budget Office, relying on a survey of models, has concluded that Waxman-Markey “would reduce the projected average annual rate of growth of gross domestic product between 2010 and 2050 by 0.03 to 0.09 percentage points.” That is, it would trim average annual growth to 2.31 percent, at worst, from 2.4 percent. Over all, the Budget Office concludes, strong climate-change policy would leave the American economy between 1.1 percent and 3.4 percent smaller in 2050 than it would be otherwise.

And what about the world economy? In general, modelers tend to find that climate-change policies would lower global output by a somewhat smaller percentage than the comparable figures for the United States. The main reason is that emerging economies like China currently use energy fairly inefficiently, partly as a result of national policies that have kept the prices of fossil fuels very low, and could thus achieve large energy savings at a modest cost. One recent review of the available estimates put the costs of a very strong climate policy — substantially more aggressive than contemplated in current legislative proposals — at between 1 and 3 percent of gross world product.

Such figures typically come from a model that combines all sorts of engineering and marketplace estimates. These will include, for instance, engineers’ best calculations of how much it costs to generate electricity in various ways, from coal, gas and nuclear and solar power at given resource prices. Then estimates will be made, based on historical experience, of how much consumers would cut back their electricity consumption if its price rises. The same process is followed for other kinds of energy, like motor fuel. And the model assumes that everyone makes the best choice given the economic environment — that power generators choose the least expensive means of producing electricity, while consumers conserve energy as long as the money saved by buying less electricity exceeds the cost of using less power in the form either of other spending or loss of convenience. After all this analysis, it’s possible to predict how producers and consumers of energy will react to policies that put a price on emissions and how much those reactions will end up costing the economy as a whole.

There are, of course, a number of ways this kind of modeling could be wrong. Many of the underlying estimates are necessarily somewhat speculative; nobody really knows, for instance, what solar power will cost once it finally becomes a large-scale proposition. There is also reason to doubt the assumption that people actually make the right choices: many studies have found that consumers fail to take measures to conserve energy, like improving insulation, even when they could save money by doing so.

But while it’s unlikely that these models get everything right, it’s a good bet that they overstate rather than understate the economic costs of climate-change action. That is what the experience from the cap-and-trade program for acid rain suggests: costs came in well below initial predictions. And in general, what the models do not and cannot take into account is creativity; surely, faced with an economy in which there are big monetary payoffs for reducing greenhouse-gas emissions, the private sector will come up with ways to limit emissions that are not yet in any model.

What you hear from conservative opponents of a climate-change policy, however, is that any attempt to limit emissions would be economically devastating. The Heritage Foundation, for one, responded to Budget Office estimates on Waxman-Markey with a broadside titled, “C.B.O. Grossly Underestimates Costs of Cap and Trade.” The real effects, the foundation said, would be ruinous for families and job creation.

This reaction — this extreme pessimism about the economy’s ability to live with cap and trade — is very much at odds with typical conservative rhetoric. After all, modern conservatives express a deep, almost mystical confidence in the effectiveness of market incentives — Ronald Reagan liked to talk about the “magic of the marketplace.” They believe that the capitalist system can deal with all kinds of limitations, that technology, say, can easily overcome any constraints on growth posed by limited reserves of oil or other natural resources. And yet now they submit that this same private sector is utterly incapable of coping with a limit on overall emissions, even though such a cap would, from the private sector’s point of view, operate very much like a limited supply of a resource, like land. Why don’t they believe that the dynamism of capitalism will spur it to find ways to make do in a world of reduced carbon emissions? Why do they think the marketplace loses its magic as soon as market incentives are invoked in favor of conservation?

Clearly, conservatives abandon all faith in the ability of markets to cope with climate-change policy because they don’t want government intervention. Their stated pessimism about the cost of climate policy is essentially a political ploy rather than a reasoned economic judgment. The giveaway is the strong tendency of conservative opponents of cap and trade to argue in bad faith. That Heritage Foundation broadside accuses the Congressional Budget Office of making elementary logical errors, but if you actually read the office’s report, it’s clear that the foundation is willfully misreading it. Conservative politicians have been even more shameless. The National Republican Congressional Committee, for example, issued multiple press releases specifically citing a study from M.I.T. as the basis for a claim that cap and trade would cost $3,100 per household, despite repeated attempts by the study’s authors to get out the word that the actual number was only about a quarter as much.

The truth is that there is no credible research suggesting that taking strong action on climate change is beyond the economy’s capacity. Even if you do not fully trust the models — and you shouldn’t — history and logic both suggest that the models are overestimating, not underestimating, the costs of climate action. We can afford to do something about climate change.

But that’s not the same as saying we should. Action will have costs, and these must be compared with the costs of not acting. Before I get to that, however, let me touch on an issue that will become central if we actually do get moving on climate policy: how to get the rest of the world to go along with us.

The China Syndrome
The United States is still the world’s largest economy, which makes the country one of the world’s largest sources of greenhouse gases. But it’s not the largest. China, which burns much more coal per dollar of gross domestic product than the United States does, overtook us by that measure around three years ago. Over all, the advanced countries — the rich man’s club comprising Europe, North America and Japan — account for only about half of greenhouse emissions, and that’s a fraction that will fall over time. In short, there can’t be a solution to climate change unless the rest of the world, emerging economies in particular, participates in a major way.

Inevitably those who resist tackling climate change point to the global nature of emissions as a reason not to act. Emissions limits in America won’t accomplish much, they argue, if China and others don’t match our effort. And they highlight China’s obduracy in the Copenhagen negotiations as evidence that other countries will not cooperate. Indeed, emerging economies feel that they have a right to emit freely without worrying about the consequences — that’s what today’s rich countries got to do for two centuries. It’s just not possible to get global cooperation on climate change, goes the argument, and that means there is no point in taking any action at all.

For those who think that taking action is essential, the right question is how to persuade China and other emerging nations to participate in emissions limits. Carrots, or positive inducements, are one answer. Imagine setting up cap-and-trade systems in China and the United States — but allow international trading in permits, so Chinese and American companies can trade emission rights. By setting overall caps at levels designed to ensure that China sells us a substantial number of permits, we would in effect be paying China to cut its emissions. Since the evidence suggests that the cost of cutting emissions would be lower in China than in the United States, this could be a good deal for everyone.
But what if the Chinese (or the Indians or the Brazilians, etc.) do not want to participate in such a system? Then you need sticks as well as carrots. In particular, you need carbon tariffs.

A carbon tariff would be a tax levied on imported goods proportional to the carbon emitted in the manufacture of those goods. Suppose that China refuses to reduce emissions, while the United States adopts policies that set a price of $100 per ton of carbon emissions. If the United States were to impose such a carbon tariff, any shipment to America of Chinese goods whose production involved emitting a ton of carbon would result in a $100 tax over and above any other duties. Such tariffs, if levied by major players — probably the United States and the European Union — would give noncooperating countries a strong incentive to reconsider their positions.

To the objection that such a policy would be protectionist, a violation of the principles of free trade, one reply is, So? Keeping world markets open is important, but avoiding planetary catastrophe is a lot more important. In any case, however, you can argue that carbon tariffs are well within the rules of normal trade relations. As long as the tariff imposed on the carbon content of imports is comparable to the cost of domestic carbon licenses, the effect is to charge your own consumers a price that reflects the carbon emitted in what they buy, no matter where it is produced. That should be legal under international-trading rules. In fact, even the World Trade Organization, which is charged with policing trade policies, has published a study suggesting that carbon tariffs would pass muster.

Needless to say, the actual business of getting cooperative, worldwide action on climate change would be much more complicated and tendentious than this discussion suggests. Yet the problem is not as intractable as you often hear. If the United States and Europe decide to move on climate policy, they almost certainly would be able to cajole and chivvy the rest of the world into joining the effort. We can do this.

The Costs of Inaction
In public discussion, the climate-change skeptics have clearly been gaining ground over the past couple of years, even though the odds have been looking good lately that 2010 could be the warmest year on record. But climate modelers themselves have grown increasingly pessimistic. What were previously worst-case scenarios have become base-line projections, with a number of organizations doubling their predictions for temperature rise over the course of the 21st century. Underlying this new pessimism is increased concern about feedback effects — for example, the release of methane, a significant greenhouse gas, from seabeds and tundra as the planet warms.

At this point, the projections of climate change, assuming we continue business as usual, cluster around an estimate that average temperatures will be about 9 degrees Fahrenheit higher in 2100 than they were in 2000. That’s a lot — equivalent to the difference in average temperatures between New York and central Mississippi. Such a huge change would have to be highly disruptive. And the troubles would not stop there: temperatures would continue to rise.

Furthermore, changes in average temperature will by no means be the whole story. Precipitation patterns will change, with some regions getting much wetter and others much drier. Many modelers also predict more intense storms. Sea levels would rise, with the impact intensified by those storms: coastal flooding, already a major source of natural disasters, would become much more frequent and severe. And there might be drastic changes in the climate of some regions as ocean currents shift. It’s always worth bearing in mind that London is at the same latitude as Labrador; without the Gulf Stream, Western Europe would be barely habitable.

While there may be some benefits from a warmer climate, it seems almost certain that upheaval on this scale would make the United States, and the world as a whole, poorer than it would be otherwise. How much poorer? If ours were a preindustrial, primarily agricultural society, extreme climate change would be obviously catastrophic. But we have an advanced economy, the kind that has historically shown great ability to adapt to changed circumstances. If this sounds similar to my argument that the costs of emissions limits would be tolerable, it ought to: the same flexibility that should enable us to deal with a much higher carbon prices should also help us cope with a somewhat higher average temperature.

But there are at least two reasons to take sanguine assessments of the consequences of climate change with a grain of salt. One is that, as I have just pointed out, it’s not just a matter of having warmer weather — many of the costs of climate change are likely to result from droughts, flooding and severe storms. The other is that while modern economies may be highly adaptable, the same may not be true of ecosystems. The last time the earth experienced warming at anything like the pace we now expect was during the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, about 55 million years ago, when temperatures rose by about 11 degrees Fahrenheit over the course of around 20,000 years (which is a much slower rate than the current pace of warming). That increase was associated with mass extinctions, which, to put it mildly, probably would not be good for living standards.

So how can we put a price tag on the effects of global warming? The most widely quoted estimates, like those in the Dynamic Integrated Model of Climate and the Economy, known as DICE, used by Yale’s William Nordhaus and colleagues, depend upon educated guesswork to place a value on the negative effects of global warming in a number of crucial areas, especially agriculture and coastal protection, then try to make some allowance for other possible repercussions. Nordhaus has argued that a global temperature rise of 4.5 degrees Fahrenheit — which used to be the consensus projection for 2100 — would reduce gross world product by a bit less than 2 percent. But what would happen if, as a growing number of models suggest, the actual temperature rise is twice as great? Nobody really knows how to make that extrapolation. For what it’s worth, Nordhaus’s model puts losses from a rise of 9 degrees at about 5 percent of gross world product. Many critics have argued, however, that the cost might be much higher.

Despite the uncertainty, it’s tempting to make a direct comparison between the estimated losses and the estimates of what the mitigation policies will cost: climate change will lower gross world product by 5 percent, stopping it will cost 2 percent, so let’s go ahead. Unfortunately the reckoning is not that simple for at least four reasons.

First, substantial global warming is already “baked in,” as a result of past emissions and because even with a strong climate-change policy the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is most likely to continue rising for many years. So even if the nations of the world do manage to take on climate change, we will still have to pay for earlier inaction. As a result, Nordhaus’s loss estimates may overstate the gains from action.

Second, the economic costs from emissions limits would start as soon as the policy went into effect and under most proposals would become substantial within around 20 years. If we don’t act, meanwhile, the big costs would probably come late this century (although some things, like the transformation of the American Southwest into a dust bowl, might come much sooner). So how you compare those costs depends on how much you value costs in the distant future relative to costs that materialize much sooner.

Third, and cutting in the opposite direction, if we don’t take action, global warming won’t stop in 2100: temperatures, and losses, will continue to rise. So if you place a significant weight on the really, really distant future, the case for action is stronger than even the 2100 estimates suggest.

Finally and most important is the matter of uncertainty. We’re uncertain about the magnitude of climate change, which is inevitable, because we’re talking about reaching levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere not seen in millions of years. The recent doubling of many modelers’ predictions for 2100 is itself an illustration of the scope of that uncertainty; who knows what revisions may occur in the years ahead. Beyond that, nobody really knows how much damage would result from temperature rises of the kind now considered likely.

You might think that this uncertainty weakens the case for action, but it actually strengthens it. As Harvard’s Martin Weitzman has argued in several influential papers, if there is a significant chance of utter catastrophe, that chance — rather than what is most likely to happen — should dominate cost-benefit calculations. And utter catastrophe does look like a realistic possibility, even if it is not the most likely outcome.

Weitzman argues — and I agree — that this risk of catastrophe, rather than the details of cost-benefit calculations, makes the most powerful case for strong climate policy. Current projections of global warming in the absence of action are just too close to the kinds of numbers associated with doomsday scenarios. It would be irresponsible — it’s tempting to say criminally irresponsible — not to step back from what could all too easily turn out to be the edge of a cliff.

Still that leaves a big debate about the pace of action.

The Ramp Versus the Big Bang
Economists who analyze climate policies agree on some key issues. There is a broad consensus that we need to put a price on carbon emissions, that this price must eventually be very high but that the negative economic effects from this policy will be of manageable size. In other words, we can and should act to limit climate change. But there is a ferocious debate among knowledgeable analysts about timing, about how fast carbon prices should rise to significant levels.

On one side are economists who have been working for many years on so-called integrated-assessment models, which combine models of climate change with models of both the damage from global warming and the costs of cutting emissions. For the most part, the message from these economists is a sort of climate version of St. Augustine’s famous prayer, “Give me chastity and continence, but not just now.” Thus Nordhaus’s DICE model says that the price of carbon emissions should eventually rise to more than $200 a ton, effectively more than quadrupling the cost of coal, but that most of that increase should come late this century, with a much more modest initial fee of around $30 a ton. Nordhaus calls this recommendation for a policy that builds gradually over a long period the “climate-policy ramp.”

On the other side are some more recent entrants to the field, who work with similar models but come to different conclusions. Most famously, Nicholas Stern, an economist at the London School of Economics, argued in 2006 for quick, aggressive action to limit emissions, which would most likely imply much higher carbon prices. This alternative position doesn’t appear to have a standard name, so let me call it the “climate-policy big bang.”

I find it easiest to make sense of the arguments by thinking of policies to reduce carbon emissions as a sort of public investment project: you pay a price now and derive benefits in the form of a less-damaged planet later. And by later, I mean much later; today’s emissions will affect the amount of carbon in the atmosphere decades, and possibly centuries, into the future. So if you want to assess whether a given investment in emissions reduction is worth making, you have to estimate the damage that an additional ton of carbon in the atmosphere will do, not just this year but for a century or more to come; and you also have to decide how much weight to place on harm that will take a very long time to materialize.

The policy-ramp advocates argue that the damage done by an additional ton of carbon in the atmosphere is fairly low at current concentrations; the cost will not get really large until there is a lot more carbon dioxide in the air, and that won’t happen until late this century. And they argue that costs that far in the future should not have a large influence on policy today. They point to market rates of return, which indicate that investors place only a small weight on the gains or losses they expect in the distant future, and argue that public policies, including climate policies, should do the same.

The big-bang advocates argue that government should take a much longer view than private investors. Stern, in particular, argues that policy makers should give the same weight to future generations’ welfare as we give to those now living. Moreover, the proponents of fast action hold that the damage from emissions may be much larger than the policy-ramp analyses suggest, either because global temperatures are more sensitive to greenhouse-gas emissions than previously thought or because the economic damage from a large rise in temperatures is much greater than the guesstimates in the climate-ramp models.

As a professional economist, I find this debate painful. There are smart, well-intentioned people on both sides — some of them, as it happens, old friends and mentors of mine — and each side has scored some major points. Unfortunately, we can’t just declare it an honorable draw, because there’s a decision to be made.
Personally, I lean toward the big-bang view. Stern’s moral argument for loving unborn generations as we love ourselves may be too strong, but there’s a compelling case to be made that public policy should take a much longer view than private markets. Even more important, the policy-ramp prescriptions seem far too much like conducting a very risky experiment with the whole planet. Nordhaus’s preferred policy, for example, would stabilize the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere at a level about twice its preindustrial average. In his model, this would have only modest effects on global welfare; but how confident can we be of that? How sure are we that this kind of change in the environment would not lead to catastrophe? Not sure enough, I’d say, particularly because, as noted above, climate modelers have sharply raised their estimates of future warming in just the last couple of years.

So what I end up with is basically Martin Weitzman’s argument: it’s the nonnegligible probability of utter disaster that should dominate our policy analysis. And that argues for aggressive moves to curb emissions, soon.

The Political Atmosphere
As I’ve mentioned, the House has already passed Waxman-Markey, a fairly strong bill aimed at reducing greenhouse-gas emissions. It’s not as strong as what the big-bang advocates propose, but it appears to move faster than the policy-ramp proposals. But the vote on Waxman-Markey, which was taken last June, revealed a starkly divided Congress. Only 8 Republicans voted in favor of it, while 44 Democrats voted against. And the odds are that it would not pass if it were brought up for a vote today.

Prospects in the Senate, where it takes 60 votes to get most legislation through, are even worse. A number of Democratic senators, representing energy-producing and agricultural states, have come out against cap and trade (modern American agriculture is strongly energy-intensive). In the past, some Republican senators have supported cap and trade. But with partisanship on the rise, most of them have been changing their tune. The most striking about-face has come from John McCain, who played a leading role in promoting cap and trade, introducing a bill broadly similar to Waxman-Markey in 2003. Today McCain lambastes the whole idea as “cap and tax,” to the dismay of former aides.

Oh, and a snowy winter on the East Coast of the U.S. has given climate skeptics a field day, even though globally this has been one of the warmest winters on record.

So the immediate prospects for climate action do not look promising, despite an ongoing effort by three senators — John Kerry, Joseph Lieberman and Lindsey Graham — to come up with a compromise proposal. (They plan to introduce legislation later this month.) Yet the issue isn’t going away. There’s a pretty good chance that the record temperatures the world outside Washington has seen so far this year will continue, depriving climate skeptics of one of their main talking points. And in a more general sense, given the twists and turns of American politics in recent years — since 2005 the conventional wisdom has gone from permanent Republican domination to permanent Democratic domination to God knows what — there has to be a real chance that political support for action on climate change will revive.

If it does, the economic analysis will be ready. We know how to limit greenhouse-gas emissions. We have a good sense of the costs — and they’re manageable. All we need now is the political will.
I may not feel that Mr. Krugman has hit a lot of nails on their heads in this piece, but I admire it nevertheless because he's at least got the fundamentals right. He understands the process we have to go through to get somwhere and appreciates its difficulties. He's not preachig, he's explaining a good deal. His rundown of the costs of acting versus not acting is clear and cogent, he illustrates the options and how we can go about arriving at the decisions.

There's more going on with environmental economics than I had been aware of, which is a good thing ... we need those numbers!

I like this piece because I think it illustrates the kind of debate we ought to be having, its tone, its tenor, its knowledge base, its attitude, and its perspective. It is reasonably stated, reasonably argued. It makes ya feel like you could have a good debate on whatever points on which you may not agree with him.

The one big problem with Waxman-Markely is its reductions target, only 17 per cent by 2050. but I suppose it would be a start. Even Bill Gates said a couple of weeks ago we have to cut to zero by 2050, and he had a good argument as to why. But ya gotta start somewhere. I don't particularly care for the cap and trade approach myself, it was a miserable failure in the EU. But it's popuar because a lot of people will make a lot of money trading licenses. It seems an archaic way to go in my mind. Expensive to enforce too. I think it sets us up for being too little too late.

Krugman does agree that more direct intervention is required in coal. The Aussies won't like that, nor of course will big coal in Canada and America and in China. But their old tech has to go, and given the horrific safety questions that have been raised in American coal mining these past few weeks, it won't be too soon, plus mountaintop removal to get at coal in the Appalacian coal belt is an environmental disaster.

Now the senate rendition of the Bill is stalled becauser Lindsay Graham is pissed off about Reid making it play second fiddle behind immigration reform. No, they can't walk and chew gum in the Senate, so we get more delay.

Most in the field think that reducing emissions by 50% by 2050 is an absolute minimum requirement.
A crime was committed against us all.

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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by ginckgo » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:42 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:Exxon and the fuel industry do not operate in a vacuum. People drive cars, and use the goods produced in factories.
Just because someone provides an important product does not mean they are beyond criticism for their actions.
Coito ergo sum wrote: The advancements of the last 200 years would not have been possible without the oil industry, ...
Again, don't conflate the product with the provider. Two very different beasts.
Coito ergo sum wrote:....so it would not be truly reflective of the cost/benefit analysis to just send them the bill without crediting them for the benefits to civilization that fossil fuel production have provided. I realize it is in vogue to demonize fossil fuels as the worst thing that ever happened to the US, and to phrase it in alarmist terms that we are "hooked" (like an addict) on fossil fuels, but the marked increase in standard of living is directly due to the discovery and processing of fossil fuels: light, heat, food, communication, travel, community -- all are based on our ability to produce and use energy. And most of our energy, about 85%, comes from fossil fuel. (Another 8% comes from nuclear power, and 7 % from all other sources, mostly hydroelectric power and wood.)
Our life styles are utterly dependent on cheap and effectively unlimited energy. "Utterly dependent" could be rephrased as "hooked".

There's also a difference between the benefits that this flood of energy has provided, and the feeling of entitlement that many seem to have that they should be allowed to just continue to fritter it away without any attempt to limit frivolous activities.

Noone wants to take away the benefits, which is why the solutions to both AGW and peak oil need to be very well thought out. But that's not happening. Instead we have selfish lobbying by industries, blind partisanism by politicians, and lethargy by the populace.

The vast amount of energy placed at the disposal of humanity, through fire, could be, and was, used to revolutionize the nature of our existence. - Isaac Asimov
Coito ergo sum wrote:Fire enabled man to go global. Nor has the importance of fire diminished with time; rather the reverse. Wood was undoubtedly the first fuel used in building and maintaining a fire. Coal took primacy of place in the 17th century, joined by gas and oil in the 20th. Without it, we would not be able to, now, talk of changing over to nuclear and other alternative fuels to generate the power we need to sustain our standard of living (which in the West allows the common person to live as comfortably, and in some ways much better, than Kings and Queens prior to the industrial revolution).
This is how we got here, it's history. It does not mean that we continue doing it the same way. Slavery made many countries very wealthy - it's abolition was heralded as the end of prosperity. ho mum.

The thing that scares me is that we have this one chance to transition from a fossil fuel society to something more sustainable. Fossil fuesl are running out. But we must have suffient fossil fuels to establish the infrastructure for the next generation of energy providers. If we run out of fuel before this happens, it is unlikely to ever happen, because we've already extracted all the resources that are accessible without cheap fuel. So no second chances.

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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:26 am

ginckgo wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:Exxon and the fuel industry do not operate in a vacuum. People drive cars, and use the goods produced in factories.
Just because someone provides an important product does not mean they are beyond criticism for their actions.
Nobody is beyond criticism. My point was if you were going to saddle them with the entire cost, you need to credit them with the entire benefit.
ginckgo wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote: The advancements of the last 200 years would not have been possible without the oil industry, ...
Again, don't conflate the product with the provider. Two very different beasts.
You can't produce oil without an oil industry.
ginckgo wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:....so it would not be truly reflective of the cost/benefit analysis to just send them the bill without crediting them for the benefits to civilization that fossil fuel production have provided. I realize it is in vogue to demonize fossil fuels as the worst thing that ever happened to the US, and to phrase it in alarmist terms that we are "hooked" (like an addict) on fossil fuels, but the marked increase in standard of living is directly due to the discovery and processing of fossil fuels: light, heat, food, communication, travel, community -- all are based on our ability to produce and use energy. And most of our energy, about 85%, comes from fossil fuel. (Another 8% comes from nuclear power, and 7 % from all other sources, mostly hydroelectric power and wood.)
Our life styles are utterly dependent on cheap and effectively unlimited energy. "Utterly dependent" could be rephrased as "hooked".
Hooked implies an "addiction" which is an irrational dependency on a substance. People use the term hooked to conjure up images of a junky who is hooked on a drug (which provides nothing but surface "benefit" and is ultimately only harmful). Oil, however, has been extraordinarily beneficial to our way of life. We don't necessarily have to have oil, per se, to keep our way of life, but we do need gobs and gobs of energy.
ginckgo wrote:
There's also a difference between the benefits that this flood of energy has provided, and the feeling of entitlement that many seem to have that they should be allowed to just continue to fritter it away without any attempt to limit frivolous activities.
What frivolous activities? The most frivolous activities - making movies, the music industry, vacations and tourism, etc., are among the least criticized. Most of our energy is used in such frivolous activities as "going to work" - heating/cooling a home - feeding kids and families - shopping - manufacturing things like cars and computers.
ginckgo wrote:
Noone wants to take away the benefits, which is why the solutions to both AGW and peak oil need to be very well thought out. But that's not happening. Instead we have selfish lobbying by industries, blind partisanism by politicians, and lethargy by the populace.
The solution is simple (but not necessarily easy): produce more energy from other sources, like nuclear.
ginckgo wrote:
The vast amount of energy placed at the disposal of humanity, through fire, could be, and was, used to revolutionize the nature of our existence. - Isaac Asimov
Coito ergo sum wrote:Fire enabled man to go global. Nor has the importance of fire diminished with time; rather the reverse. Wood was undoubtedly the first fuel used in building and maintaining a fire. Coal took primacy of place in the 17th century, joined by gas and oil in the 20th. Without it, we would not be able to, now, talk of changing over to nuclear and other alternative fuels to generate the power we need to sustain our standard of living (which in the West allows the common person to live as comfortably, and in some ways much better, than Kings and Queens prior to the industrial revolution).
This is how we got here, it's history. It does not mean that we continue doing it the same way. Slavery made many countries very wealthy - it's abolition was heralded as the end of prosperity. ho mum.
Of course - but, the answer is a replacement source of power.
ginckgo wrote:
The thing that scares me is that we have this one chance to transition from a fossil fuel society to something more sustainable. Fossil fuesl are running out. But we must have suffient fossil fuels to establish the infrastructure for the next generation of energy providers. If we run out of fuel before this happens, it is unlikely to ever happen, because we've already extracted all the resources that are accessible without cheap fuel. So no second chances.
One word - nuclear. That's the answer for the near term (talking 100 years). Nuclear is the only viable way, at present, to generate enough power within the next 3-5 decades to cut our need for fossil fuels by any real percentage. If we build enough nuclear power plants, we could easily be rid (from a US perspective) of the need for foreign oil completely in 25 years. I think a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum would love to see the US not have an economic incentive to mill about in the middle east, ay?

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Re: "Climate Change - Doubts, Denials, Scepticism, and Polit

Post by Fact-Man » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:03 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
ginckgo wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:Exxon and the fuel industry do not operate in a vacuum. People drive cars, and use the goods produced in factories.
Just because someone provides an important product does not mean they are beyond criticism for their actions.
Nobody is beyond criticism. My point was if you were going to saddle them with the entire cost, you need to credit them with the entire benefit.
One could argue, however, that the "benefit" has in fact not been much of a benefit at all but much more of a very heavy price for what can be seen as not much in the way of progress.

In fact, what's happened is our so-called progress has involved some very serious and very heavy impacts upon the biosphere, with rampant pollution creating enormous problems in the cleanliness of our air and water and acting in exceedingly destructive ways on ecosystems right round the globe. The British Sustainability Commission has estimated that 60 per cent of earth's ecosystems have neen severely damaged or outright destroyed by our "progress," mainly owing to rapacious resource extraction and the dumping of toxic waste product.

In America, we created a vast consumer economy that consumes more than half the world's annual production of materials and resources ... to keep less than five per cent of the world's population supplied with a sea of junk products and trinkets which end up in landfills soon enough. In the course of this we also produced zillions of cars and trucks and paved over hundreds of thousands of acres of good argicultural land and filled in wetlands to make the highways they need to travel upon.

It is disingenuous to think of any of this as representing any sort of decent "progress," because in fact it has involved the pillaging of the planet to make gobs of money while sustaining an unsustainable and debt ridden culture. Hardly what a sane man would call "progress."

This is of course a matter of perspective, how one views things and whether one thinks all the so-called "progress" has been worth the price of degrading the biosphere and depleting resources in exceedingly wasteful ways. And it really matters little now that the damage has been done and the resources have been wasted away. But it is at the same time not very smart to think of it as having been a very rational sequence of events or even a "good thing."

But what's done is done and now we can only look to the future. In doing so we should not think that any continuation of BAU (business as usual) represents any sane way forward, for it simply does not. The British Sustainability Commission has also estimated that if our economy grows at the rate it has since 1950 it will be 40 times larger in 2100 than it is today, and that would require the resources of three to five planet earth's to support. Clearly, that's not sustainable and suggests that we have to figure out a better way of doing things.

And the time for doing so is now.

The oil and auto industries conspired to push us down the road of development that maximized their profits (see the movie "Who Killed Roger Rabbit" for a good elucidation of this) while paying no heed whatsoever to real biospheric and human needs. All they wanted to do is make money, the more of it the merrier, and they never gave a damn about what the consequences would be. Well, now the consequences are staring us in the face ... and they do not present a very pretty picture and in fact pose some extremely difficult times to come.

Other than a few people making gobs of money, the "benefits" of a fossil fuel based consumer society aren't "benefits" at all and in fact are quite the contrary, a badly pillaged and ever warming planet, a major exinction event, and 60% of our ecosystems trashed, not to mention the enormous personal debt loads that have been necessary to finance it all.

This business of thinking so-called "progress" has been benign and all good and wonderful is a woefully underinformed view.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
One word - nuclear. That's the answer for the near term (talking 100 years). Nuclear is the only viable way, at present, to generate enough power within the next 3-5 decades to cut our need for fossil fuels by any real percentage. If we build enough nuclear power plants, we could easily be rid (from a US perspective) of the need for foreign oil completely in 25 years. I think a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum would love to see the US not have an economic incentive to mill about in the middle east, ay?
You're assuming that we need to keep burning 13 million bbls of oil a day just to commute back and forth to work, which is 60 per cent of the oil we burn. The oil industry loves it, the auto industry loves it, the highway construction industry loves it, the auto service industry loves it, but is it really a necessity? Undoubtedly not.

It's very problematic that a sufficient number of sites for new nuke plants with adequate cooling water could be identified in the continental US. But who's going to pay for all these new nukes in the first place? At $10 to $15 billion a pop they don't come cheap. An they take a decade to build. Private enterprise isn't going to finance them. That leaves the government, already neck deep in debt and getting deeper every day.

And all of that so we can keep Las Vegas lit up like a Christman tree 24/7 and have six televisions and an average of 67 electical appliances and elctic tooth brushes in every home?

You haven't even looked at the issue of waste in energy use or frivolous uses or efficiencies and you think we ought to build several tens of new nuke plants? You exhibit a very cavalier approach and attitude.

We have arrived at a time when consumerism is a lifeway is dying, when we are realizing the damage we have done to the biosphere with our cute little and profligately wasteful consumer society, when we've polluted the atmsophere with enough CO2 to bring our future into question. These are the most serious situations one can imagine, and you're answer is one word, nuclear, with a boatload of apologetic excuses for why the fossil fuel industry shouldn't be made to pay for its polluting ways.

It's unbelieveable that anyone could be so naive and uninformed and so cavalier and shortsighted, so ... blind about the realities that we face at every turn.
A crime was committed against us all.

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