Do you hate Islam ?

[Pappa]

I don't think Islamic terrorism is ultimately to do with Islam. Yes, it is committed by Muslim extremist in the name of Allah, but ultimately Wahhabism and other forms of fundamentalist Islam are being pushed around the world to radicalise the Muslim plebes as an autonomous army. The root reason is the desire for cultural and political hegemony for power and money, by middle eastern elites. Religion is just the tool to get the deed done.

[Twiglet]

Mandelson, I'm sure I read somewhere that you said you were well educated. Can you provide a link, as I'm having trouble finding the required information.

On the issue of 9/11, the pdf link supplied is probably the most comprehensive and credible link I've seen, and it is recent:

http://www.ae911truth.org/downloads/29_ ... -06-17.pdf

Irrespective of whether the people who committed atrocities in London or New York were Muslim, they were first and foremost criminals. There are plenty of law abiding people in all religions, and regardless of how anyone feels about religions, it is IMO utterly unfair to condemn whole groups of people on the basis of a criminal element.

Do forgive me if you are all just trolling each other here, I'm finding it rather hard to tell

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't think Islamic terrorism is ultimately to do with Islam.

Of course it has to do with Islam. Those committing the terrorist acts say they are doing so because of their false god.

Yes, it is committed by Muslim extremist in the name of Allah, but ultimately Wahhabism and other forms of fundamentalist Islam are being pushed around the world to radicalise the Muslim plebes as an autonomous army. The root reason is the desire for cultural and political hegemony for power and money, by middle eastern elites. Religion is just the tool to get the deed done.

I think the leaders of the movement are true believers.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I don't think Islamic terrorism is ultimately to do with Islam. Yes, it is committed by Muslim extremist in the name of Allah, but ultimately Wahhabism and other forms of fundamentalist Islam are being pushed around the world to radicalise the Muslim plebes as an autonomous army. The root reason is the desire for cultural and political hegemony for power and money, by middle eastern elites. Religion is just the tool to get the deed done.

Being "a little bit pregnant", in other words.

[Twiglet]

I don't think Islamic terrorism is ultimately to do with Islam. Yes, it is committed by Muslim extremist in the name of Allah, but ultimately Wahhabism and other forms of fundamentalist Islam are being pushed around the world to radicalise the Muslim plebes as an autonomous army. The root reason is the desire for cultural and political hegemony for power and money, by middle eastern elites. Religion is just the tool to get the deed done.

Let's not forget here that Wahhabism was a religious "philosophy" -I use the term loosely, which was adopted by the Al Saud family to cement their rulership and provide a pretext for crushing local "infidels" for which you can read "political opponents". The key sources of funding which sustained the Al Saud family in power over the last 100 odd years have been the British, followed by the Americans, the primary motivation being the control of oil resources.

Further, during the conflicts in Afghanistan during the cold war, the US actively funded and armed ther Mujahaddin fighters to provide a bulwark against Russia. Part of that funding was very deliberately and directly funnelled into Madrases which served as recruitment camps for the partisans - the same Madrases which are now high on western worry lists.

It's shit easy to blame religion for the conflicts but it's bloody naive as well. The west has systemically used policies of divide and conquer in which it provided financial backing and arms to the most radical elements whilst it served our purposes to do so. Often at the expense of liberal thinking Islamic scholars who are still being persecuted and tortured to this date. Fundamentalism thrives in ignorance and poverty, and those addicted to dogma are easily manipulated into giving up blood and souls for their causes.

Militant Islam may now be the enemy of the west, but it's a monster we ourselves played a very large part in creating.

[Trolldor]

Islam has a lot to do with terrorism, Terrorism does not have a lot to do with Islam.

[Pappa]

I don't think Islamic terrorism is ultimately to do with Islam.

Of course it has to do with Islam. Those committing the terrorist acts say they are doing so because of their false god.

Yes, it is committed by Muslim extremist in the name of Allah, but ultimately Wahhabism and other forms of fundamentalist Islam are being pushed around the world to radicalise the Muslim plebes as an autonomous army. The root reason is the desire for cultural and political hegemony for power and money, by middle eastern elites. Religion is just the tool to get the deed done.

I think the leaders of the movement are true believers.

Maybe the leaders of Al-Qaeda and other groups are, but not necessarily the money that funds the spread of extremist views throughout the world (without which, terrorist wouldn't have a support base). The money comes from rich Saudis and similar, their money funds all sorts of things that help and encourage fundamentalist versions of Islam around the world, which in turn creates terrorists and people who support terrorism. It's much cheaper than paying for a regular army and going to war against the world's superpowers though.

[Pappa]

I don't think Islamic terrorism is ultimately to do with Islam. Yes, it is committed by Muslim extremist in the name of Allah, but ultimately Wahhabism and other forms of fundamentalist Islam are being pushed around the world to radicalise the Muslim plebes as an autonomous army. The root reason is the desire for cultural and political hegemony for power and money, by middle eastern elites. Religion is just the tool to get the deed done.

Let's not forget here that Wahhabism was a religious "philosophy" -I use the term loosely, which was adopted by the Al Saud family to cement their rulership and provide a pretext for crushing local "infidels" for which you can read "political opponents". The key sources of funding which sustained the Al Saud family in power over the last 100 odd years have been the British, followed by the Americans, the primary motivation being the control of oil resources.

Further, during the conflicts in Afghanistan during the cold war, the US actively funded and armed ther Mujahaddin fighters to provide a bulwark against Russia. Part of that funding was very deliberately and directly funnelled into Madrases which served as recruitment camps for the partisans - the same Madrases which are now high on western worry lists.

It's shit easy to blame religion for the conflicts but it's bloody naive as well. The west has systemically used policies of divide and conquer in which it provided financial backing and arms to the most radical elements whilst it served our purposes to do so. Often at the expense of liberal thinking Islamic scholars who are still being persecuted and tortured to this date. Fundamentalism thrives in ignorance and poverty, and those addicted to dogma are easily manipulated into giving up blood and souls for their causes.

Militant Islam may now be the enemy of the west, but it's a monster we ourselves played a very large part in creating.

+1 to all that.

[Ian]

I just love this age where Islam meets globalization. It keeps some of my colleagues quite gainfully employed.
:twisted:

[Deep Sea Isopod]

I would just like to say-
When muslim women dress like this.....

It's very pretty.


But when they dress like this.....

I fucking hate it.

They look like fucking black postboxes. And reminds me of the oppression that goes on against muslim women.

[charlou]

I don't think Islamic terrorism is ultimately to do with Islam. Yes, it is committed by Muslim extremist in the name of Allah, but ultimately Wahhabism and other forms of fundamentalist Islam are being pushed around the world to radicalise the Muslim plebes as an autonomous army. The root reason is the desire for cultural and political hegemony for power and money, by middle eastern elites. Religion is just the tool to get the deed done.

Let's not forget here that Wahhabism was a religious "philosophy" -I use the term loosely, which was adopted by the Al Saud family to cement their rulership and provide a pretext for crushing local "infidels" for which you can read "political opponents". The key sources of funding which sustained the Al Saud family in power over the last 100 odd years have been the British, followed by the Americans, the primary motivation being the control of oil resources.

Further, during the conflicts in Afghanistan during the cold war, the US actively funded and armed ther Mujahaddin fighters to provide a bulwark against Russia. Part of that funding was very deliberately and directly funnelled into Madrases which served as recruitment camps for the partisans - the same Madrases which are now high on western worry lists.

It's shit easy to blame religion for the conflicts but it's bloody naive as well. The west has systemically used policies of divide and conquer in which it provided financial backing and arms to the most radical elements whilst it served our purposes to do so. Often at the expense of liberal thinking Islamic scholars who are still being persecuted and tortured to this date. Fundamentalism thrives in ignorance and poverty, and those addicted to dogma are easily manipulated into giving up blood and souls for their causes.

Militant Islam may now be the enemy of the west, but it's a monster we ourselves played a very large part in creating.

+1 to all that.

Yes, to both your comments ...

It's utter credulity and faith-based thinking that are being groomed and exploited for political ends. Religious fervour and political motives are so entwined that it's virtually impossible to tease them apart, to find where one ends and the other begins.

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't think Islamic terrorism is ultimately to do with Islam.

Of course it has to do with Islam. Those committing the terrorist acts say they are doing so because of their false god.

Yes, it is committed by Muslim extremist in the name of Allah, but ultimately Wahhabism and other forms of fundamentalist Islam are being pushed around the world to radicalise the Muslim plebes as an autonomous army. The root reason is the desire for cultural and political hegemony for power and money, by middle eastern elites. Religion is just the tool to get the deed done.

I think the leaders of the movement are true believers.

Maybe the leaders of Al-Qaeda and other groups are, but not necessarily the money that funds the spread of extremist views throughout the world (without which, terrorist wouldn't have a support base). The money comes from rich Saudis and similar, their money funds all sorts of things that help and encourage fundamentalist versions of Islam around the world, which in turn creates terrorists and people who support terrorism. It's much cheaper than paying for a regular army and going to war against the world's superpowers though.

The money comes, in large part, from individual donors around the world, particularly in the west. They donate to Muslim front organizations, which pretend to be charitable or otherwise benign, and then funnel money back to terrorist groups.

You see, the thing is, we have gradations of believers, but never hold back from taking people's word regarding their religions. We atheists have a tendency to look at religions as fanciful and akin to myth, legend and fairy tales. I assure you, religious people do not. The fanatics are extreme, of course, and lead the way into violence. The great unwashed religious masses, however, who may not like to engage in violence themselves, quite often sympathize with the goals of the extremists.

Check out these links to opinion polls in the Islamic world:

The majority of Palestinians support suicide bombings (also here and here).
The majority of Palestinians support the killing of Jewish civilians, including Jewish children (also here and here).
The majority of Palestinians do not accept Israel's right to exist.
The majority of Lebanese support suicide bombing.
The majority of Nigerians who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
The majority of Bangladeshis who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
47 percent of Jordanians who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
43 percent of Pakistanis who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
40 percent of Indonesian Muslims would use violence against those blaspheming Islam.=
74 percent in Egypt agree "strongly" or "somewhat" that there should be strict sharia in all Muslim countries.
76 percent of Pakistanis want strict sharia in every Islamic country.
76 percent of Moroccans want strict sharia in every Islamic country.
The surveys go on and on and are quite consistent.....suicide bombings, destruction of Israel, and sha'ria law are all RELIGIOUSLY based things.
http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.world.html#moderate

This is what Sam Harris is talking about when he suggests that the "moderates" provide "cover" for the extremists. With opinion polls like these...the extremists have the support they need.

As an aside, in a poll of Egyptians:

Which country do you most hate? Top answer - USA.
In which country would you most like to live? Top answer - USA.
- cognitive dissonance runs deep in every society, I guess.

[Pappa]

The money comes, in large part, from individual donors around the world, particularly in the west. They donate to Muslim front organizations, which pretend to be charitable or otherwise benign, and then funnel money back to terrorist groups.

Maybe I should have been clearer. I don't mean the money that funds terrorist directly, but the money that pays for the printing and distribution of books and pamphlets containing extremist propaganda. These and the sheikhs who are funded and supported by the same money to peddle them in the west and elsewhere create the fan base for the support of Islamic terrorism around the world.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Interesting idea that "militant Islam" was, in part at least, created by "the West". I would beg to differ, however. The Middle Eastern countries invented organized warfare and the present batch of loonies are just the heir to that heritage. They would find somebody to hate and fight if they were locked in a room alone.

[Thinking Aloud]

My god always agrees with me.