The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post Reply
User avatar
Surendra Darathy
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:45 pm
About me: I am only human. Keep in mind, I am Russian. And is no part of speech in Russian equivalent to definite article in English. Bad enough is no present tense of verb "to be".
Location: Rugburn-on-Knees, Kent, UK
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:52 am

jamest wrote:And yet, every human response (action or verbal) to an environmental event is determined by how an organism 'feels' with regards to that event. That is, our beliefs/emotions/desires fuel any specific response to the environment, so that the environment plays only a bit-part in the process. Certainly, the environment cannot itself impose specific beliefs/emotions/desires upon us. Therefore, our responses to that environment cannot be attributed to that environment. So, since the environment is not responsible for our responses to it, then we cannot simply attribute our brain states as mirrors of it.
More to the point, James, your beliefs cannot impose any action on the environment (except of course the part of the environment that includes other people, where it includes actions like speaking and writing). That's why I keep making the jokes about spoon-bending, James. You haven't incorporated into your argument any distinction between your inside and your outside. In therapy and counseling, this is sometimes referred to as having "fragile ego boundaries".

Since you are not paying me to give you therapy on this issue, my response to you when you fail to see where your nose leaves off and mine begins is to do a little spoon bending. Or nose bending, as the case may be.
:biggrin:
SoS wrote:Why do people like you and LI claim to be mystics and then piss on this concept of the illusion of the self? Why do you need to make your own little subjective world something Godly and Great in the universe and refuse to acknowledge it's effervescence?
:clap: :woot: :cuddle:

The mystical concept of the illusion of self is mashed around somewhat by fragile ego boundaries. Making the decision to let go of the self should be a matter of choice, and not a matter of compulsion.
I'll get you, my pretty, and your little God, too!

Kenny Login
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:15 pm
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by Kenny Login » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:54 am

GrahamH wrote:My interest is in accounting for the fiction. If the fiction can be established there is no 'Subjective Observer' and 'observation' is brain activity. I.e. the brain observes the world, including its own person (but not itself as a brain).
Ok, I only asked because the accounting for is not the elimination of. Perhaps eliminating the fiction is not at all necessary. But because the illusion is such an enduring and intractable one, things can get very messy if 'one' assumes that 'one' is not really real. (I also think it renders discussion on some of the murkier areas of consciousness/subconsciousness very difficult indeed.)

Thanks.

Kenny Login
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:15 pm
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by Kenny Login » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:58 am

I have to agree with jamest in the respect that other models - psychological, psychoanalytic, sociological etc etc are sometimes more informative and better at mapping the territory. Especially when dealing with non-ordinary states of mind or psychopathology. For example, nothing I have come across in cognitive models handles peak experiences very well at all. Neuroscience, however, does have some very interesting correlations.

If a neurocognitive model for psychology proves good enough to replace all others, then so be it. But certainly there is reason to think it's not quite up to the job yet, perhaps never.

I do also wonder whether the 'I' that is being used here is different to the observer, but I'm waiting to ask LI some questions about that....

P.S. SoS, thanks for the informed neuro posts, interesting stuff.

User avatar
Surendra Darathy
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:45 pm
About me: I am only human. Keep in mind, I am Russian. And is no part of speech in Russian equivalent to definite article in English. Bad enough is no present tense of verb "to be".
Location: Rugburn-on-Knees, Kent, UK
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:59 am

Kenny Login wrote:For example, nothing I have come across in cognitive models handles peak experiences very well at all.
Kenny, along about the time a "peak experience" can bend a spoon, then your strawman will have some punchback in him.

Here's another symbol for "peak experience", Kenny: :dq:

I don't think we have a smiley yet for "jizz on the mirror".
Kenny Login wrote:But certainly there is reason to think it's not quite up to the job yet, perhaps never.
If you're going to make the argument from incredulity, don't hedge. If you're hunting for the God of the Gaps, be sure to bring along your hip waders.
Last edited by Surendra Darathy on Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'll get you, my pretty, and your little God, too!

User avatar
GrahamH
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:29 pm
Location: South coast, UK
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by GrahamH » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:04 pm

Kenny Login wrote:
GrahamH wrote:My interest is in accounting for the fiction. If the fiction can be established there is no 'Subjective Observer' and 'observation' is brain activity. I.e. the brain observes the world, including its own person (but not itself as a brain).
Ok, I only asked because the accounting for is not the elimination of. Perhaps eliminating the fiction is not at all necessary. But because the illusion is such an enduring and intractable one, things can get very messy if 'one' assumes that 'one' is not really real. (I also think it renders discussion on some of the murkier areas of consciousness/subconsciousness very difficult indeed.)

Thanks.
Perhaps I wan't sufficiently clear. I don't mean the subjective self is misunderstood by a real subjective observer, I mean there is no subjective observer, but there is non-subjective 'knowledge' of an 'I'. This non-subjective knowledge being brain states that influence brain behaviour such that the person ends up talking about hot it feels to see red. The 'fiction' is then information about something that doesn't actually exist distinct from the holder of the information.

This is probably confusing at the moment but I hope we can get back on topic soon and start discussing it.

The issue is not do I have experiences or am I a mind, it is what these things mean, what are experiences, is there actually a subjective entity having them and what makes a mind?
Last edited by GrahamH on Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SpeedOfSound
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 am
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by SpeedOfSound » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:05 pm

Surendra Darathy wrote:
SoS wrote:Why do people like you and LI claim to be mystics and then piss on this concept of the illusion of the self? Why do you need to make your own little subjective world something Godly and Great in the universe and refuse to acknowledge it's effervescence?
:clap: :woot: :cuddle:

The mystical concept of the illusion of self is mashed around somewhat by fragile ego boundaries. Making the decision to let go of the self should be a matter of choice, and not a matter of compulsion.
The nice thing about letting go of the illusion of self is that the self does it's best work without the delusions. All by it-Self. :drunk:
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

User avatar
Surendra Darathy
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:45 pm
About me: I am only human. Keep in mind, I am Russian. And is no part of speech in Russian equivalent to definite article in English. Bad enough is no present tense of verb "to be".
Location: Rugburn-on-Knees, Kent, UK
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:11 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Surendra Darathy wrote:
SoS wrote:Why do people like you and LI claim to be mystics and then piss on this concept of the illusion of the self? Why do you need to make your own little subjective world something Godly and Great in the universe and refuse to acknowledge it's effervescence?
:clap: :woot: :cuddle:

The mystical concept of the illusion of self is mashed around somewhat by fragile ego boundaries. Making the decision to let go of the self should be a matter of choice, and not a matter of compulsion.
The nice thing about letting go of the illusion of self is that the self does it's best work without the delusions. All by it-Self. :drunk:
That's the paradox, innit? It's not a competition. Not only are you racing against no one else, you're not even there yourself. Everything that gets written online about this is about other stuff. Cat-whirling. Man, I'm envious. You got tossed out of a mall for cat-whirling. I only aspire to be that good at it. Teach me what you know, Master.
I'll get you, my pretty, and your little God, too!

User avatar
Surendra Darathy
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:45 pm
About me: I am only human. Keep in mind, I am Russian. And is no part of speech in Russian equivalent to definite article in English. Bad enough is no present tense of verb "to be".
Location: Rugburn-on-Knees, Kent, UK
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:16 pm

GrahamH wrote:what makes a mind?
This could take all day...

Oh the knee-bone's connected to the... shin-bone...

See the girl make that scene, diggin' the dancing queen... :whistle:

Give me the child, and I'll give you the man.

(there's more where those came from)
I'll get you, my pretty, and your little God, too!

SpeedOfSound
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 am
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by SpeedOfSound » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:21 pm

Kenny Login wrote:I have to agree with jamest in the respect that other models - psychological, psychoanalytic, sociological etc etc are sometimes more informative and better at mapping the territory. Especially when dealing with non-ordinary states of mind or psychopathology. For example, nothing I have come across in cognitive models handles peak experiences very well at all. Neuroscience, however, does have some very interesting correlations.

If a neurocognitive model for psychology proves good enough to replace all others, then so be it. But certainly there is reason to think it's not quite up to the job yet, perhaps never.

I do also wonder whether the 'I' that is being used here is different to the observer, but I'm waiting to ask LI some questions about that....

P.S. SoS, thanks for the informed neuro posts, interesting stuff.
Andrew Newberg is doing some good work on peak experiences and mysticism using brain scans. I had one of these strange little experiences as a teen so I've seen them from the inside. I have also had massive drug induced nervous breakdowns followed by very similar experiences. There is a tight relationship between Bat Shit Crazy and religious experiences.

Though I would not want to discount these RE's in any way. They are significant, positive, and life changing. NS is cracking these mysteries too and hopefully informing them. There are areas in the temporal lobes and anterior cingulate that act as our gyroscopes and inform us about who and where we are. As we take on life's baggage we have higher order associations (beliefs, resentments, clinging, bias etc ) that get strongly attached to this gyro. Either a massive meltdown or the educational variety of spiritual awakening will allow a bit of rearrangement and jettison of the extra baggage.

This stuff happens to us every day and often when we realize with some shock that something is not the way it seems. It feels a little like a mini-seizure and varies greatly in intensity. I think it is a necessary element of the workings of our brain.

It has a nice name. Enlightenment. My hope is always that our religiously impaired friends will tire of beating their heads on the Wall of Woo and become so enlightened.

S.D.!! Back off! I know you want to eat me when I discuss such matters!
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

User avatar
Surendra Darathy
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:45 pm
About me: I am only human. Keep in mind, I am Russian. And is no part of speech in Russian equivalent to definite article in English. Bad enough is no present tense of verb "to be".
Location: Rugburn-on-Knees, Kent, UK
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:25 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:S.D.!! Back off! I know you want to eat me when I discuss such matters!
Don't worry, mate. I'm so mellow today, I don't even need any glue to get my cats to stick to me.
I'll get you, my pretty, and your little God, too!

Trolldor
Gargling with Nails
Posts: 15878
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:57 am
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by Trolldor » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:28 pm

I know you want to eat me when I discuss such matters!
Said the actress to the bishop...
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

SpeedOfSound
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 am
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by SpeedOfSound » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:38 pm

The hippocampus or allocortex is ancient cortex. Very likely the progenitor of our neocortex. It has only three layers instead of six. In the early evolution of mammals and still today in rodents it is highly evolved to find places of things like nuts and other food stores and sources.

Primates commandeered this thing to represent time as well as space and we use it like an index system into our episodic history. Dreaming evolved long ago, alongside the neocortex, to clean house in the HC and make long term associations to it's indices. Much of our religious thinking and archetypes are probably sourced to this mechanism.

But it is our sense of self. It is heart-breaking and amazing to watch a loved one with Alzheimer's lose this sense before your eyes. They progressively become just a body without a 'soul'. The HC is the first to go with any brain disease.

It's interesting that storing acorns and finding them again (IceAge character scrat) is probably the origin of our soul. :hilarious:
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

jamest
Posts: 1381
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:10 pm
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by jamest » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:46 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:Did you read my posts about the brain? Did you grasp the significance of the individuality and the connectedness with our history and environment? Did you understand the potential for chaotic systems?

In a system this complex why would you not expect to see dynamic creativity?
Either brain states are responses to an external environment, or they are not. Make your mind up which you prefer, though I'm focussed upon Graham's choice right now. Any reference to 'creativity' implies that brain states are not purely responses to the environment.
Why do people like you and LI claim to be mystics and then piss on this concept of the illusion of the self? Why do you need to make your own little subjective world something Godly and Great in the universe and refuse to acknowledge it's effervescence?
I'm not supposed to have a subjective world, am I? According to you lot, my thoughts and words are bi-products of my environment. I'm just a fucking puppet. It is not 'me' that speaks, but my world.

User avatar
Surendra Darathy
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:45 pm
About me: I am only human. Keep in mind, I am Russian. And is no part of speech in Russian equivalent to definite article in English. Bad enough is no present tense of verb "to be".
Location: Rugburn-on-Knees, Kent, UK
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:49 pm

jamest wrote:
Why do people like you and LI claim to be mystics and then piss on this concept of the illusion of the self? Why do you need to make your own little subjective world something Godly and Great in the universe and refuse to acknowledge it's effervescence?
I'm not supposed to have a subjective world, am I? According to you lot, my thoughts and words are bi-products of my environment. I'm just a fucking puppet. It is not 'me' that speaks, but my world.
:dq: :console:
I'll get you, my pretty, and your little God, too!

jamest
Posts: 1381
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:10 pm
Contact:

Re: The subjective observer is a fictional character

Post by jamest » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:50 pm

GrahamH wrote:Plainly 'ideas' and not 'fed into the brain' The brain responds to the world, including its own responses, and those of other brains. This incredibly complex melding of sources is the formation of ideas, reactions, personality etc.
That's an assertion, not to be confused with 'explanation'.
If you return again to this idiotic idea that all brains are identical and all brain responses should be identical unless a soul intervenes then I don't think we will be able to continue.
I have not mentioned the word 'soul' in this thread at all. And I haven't made reference about identical brains since yesterday afternoon, at the start of the discussion. Your 'strings' must be tangled. :lol:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests