U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

[Twoflower]

I think what Pluto2 is getting at is that the intensity of one's emotions is often inversely proportional to one's ability/willingness to listen to what others are saying and consider all the facts equally. Intensity often escalates in such touchy issues and sooner or later, somebody's going to stop playing nice, which is a no-no. I say this as someone who agrees with you in principle, if not in method of delivery.

I think what FBM is trying to say is everyone chill the fuck out.

[FBM]

I think what Pluto2 is getting at is that the intensity of one's emotions is often inversely proportional to one's ability/willingness to listen to what others are saying and consider all the facts equally. Intensity often escalates in such touchy issues and sooner or later, somebody's going to stop playing nice, which is a no-no. I say this as someone who agrees with you in principle, if not in method of delivery.

I think what FBM is trying to say is everyone chill the fuck out.

Why is it that everybody else can say in one sentence what it takes me 5 to say?

[Twoflower]

I think what Pluto2 is getting at is that the intensity of one's emotions is often inversely proportional to one's ability/willingness to listen to what others are saying and consider all the facts equally. Intensity often escalates in such touchy issues and sooner or later, somebody's going to stop playing nice, which is a no-no. I say this as someone who agrees with you in principle, if not in method of delivery.

I think what FBM is trying to say is everyone chill the fuck out.

Why is it that everybody else can say in one sentence what it takes me 5 to say?

You just don't have the gift.

[FBM]

I think what Pluto2 is getting at is that the intensity of one's emotions is often inversely proportional to one's ability/willingness to listen to what others are saying and consider all the facts equally. Intensity often escalates in such touchy issues and sooner or later, somebody's going to stop playing nice, which is a no-no. I say this as someone who agrees with you in principle, if not in method of delivery.

I think what FBM is trying to say is everyone chill the fuck out.

Why is it that everybody else can say in one sentence what it takes me 5 to say?

You just don't have the gift.

Why do people keep telling me that?

[FBM]

Test post.

[Trolldor]

Heh... Glenn Beck is your sauce of information?

Better just going for the bottle and hoping that you'll get some drunken revelation.

[NineOneFour]

I think what Pluto2 is getting at is that the intensity of one's emotions is often inversely proportional to one's ability/willingness to listen to what others are saying and consider all the facts equally. Intensity often escalates in such touchy issues and sooner or later, somebody's going to stop playing nice, which is a no-no. I say this as someone who agrees with you in principle, if not in method of delivery.

ohyourenofun

[NineOneFour]

Heh... Glenn Beck is your sauce of information?

Better just going for the bottle and hoping that you'll get some drunken revelation.

[Coito ergo sum]

Conservative David Frum says the health care vote was a huge defeat for the republicans,

He says it's their Waterloo.

Didn't some republicans predict that it would be Obama's Waterloo?


http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

Well, of course it's a huge defeat. It's a huge defeat not just for conservatives, but for anyone who opposed the health care "reform." When you have a bill like this, it is quite difficult to repeal it. They have a President who would veto any bill repealing it, and so if Obama is reelected there is literally no chance until 2016. That's why the most offensive provisions of this bill don't take effect to 2014.

[Coito ergo sum]

If that plus the public option were part of health care reform it would have lowered health care cost by substantial amounts.

If that were true, then the original House bill (which incorporated both of those things), would have been estimated to reduce the deficit. HOwever, the CBO, when evaluating HR 3200, found that it would increase the deficit when there was a public option.

A strong robust public option would have brought costs down. I've read two CBO reports about the public option. One says it will control costs, and then there's the one you mention.

The biggest "cost control" measure cited by the CBO was the alleged "fraud reduction" that the drafters of the bills envisioned. If they could save all that money reducing fraud, why don't they do it now?

[Trolldor]

Because of Republicans and dumbass Democrats who disagree that all Americans deserve cover and what to do everything they can to Sabotage it.

They try to get rid of every deficit-reducing measure, and then when the deficit goes up they say "See, see! We told you!"

[Coito ergo sum]

Governments can negotiate very well with drug companies, because drug companies goals are to make as much money as possible, and governments goals are to spend as little money as possible, plus, they buy in bulk.

Except that the government employs many incompetents, and the government system is set up where there is little, if any, reason for an employee to care whether the price is $X or $X-1. Nobody's pay or job depends on the best deal being cut. Where government negotiates well is when it simply sets or dictates prices, or secondarily where it operates a blind bid process. However, even with the bid process, the government lets company's game the system. Low bids are submitted knowing that the government will submit change orders or modifications, and then they make up underbids by overcharging on modifications.

I have no idea where this idea has arisen of late that government workers are somehow these highly skilled gems....

[Coito ergo sum]

http://beforeitsnews.com/news/26687/Dem ... mmary.html

Remember everyone, this plan was sold and billed as a vehicle to provide health insurance for all and that:

Health care will be more affordable than it is now as a result of this plan.
It will be budget neutral (at least), and would likely reduce the deficit.

Obama stated as follows: “I Will Not Sign a Healthcare Bill That Raises The Deficit by One Dime…Not One Dime!”

Opponents of the bill are adamant that health insurance will not be more affordable, and that it will raise the deficit. Even the CBO analysis based on these faulty assumptions concludes that in 2019 alone taxes will be $100 billion higher and spending will be increased by $200 billion.

Most of the proponents that I've seen say they believe that the deficit will be reduced and health insurance will be cheaper. I am fairly sure, however, that proponents don't really care if the deficit goes up or if health insurance is more expensive.

Oh stop squalling.

You aren't going to have to pay one lousy fucking dime.

That's just wrong. You must be completely ignorant of the terms of this new law. I will be paying about 3 to 3.5 times for my insurance after the bill takes effect.

And the bill REDUCES the deficit.

Sheesh.

No. It does not. They manufactured that assertion by removing the doctor fix and double counting savings. It's a fraud that the supporters of "health care reform" in general find it easy and tasty to swallow because it lets them delude themselves into thinking that this will bring on a paradise on Earth.

[Coito ergo sum]

Shame about the public option, but some healthcare reform is better than none.

"Sorry, but that bill has flaws. So we can't vote for it. Give us a perfect bill and we'll gladly vote for it. We'll wait right here until you come up with one. What? Help find one? That's a trap, isn't it?"

I'd settle for one that met Obama's criteria for a bill:

1. Paid for
2. Did not raise the deficit
3. Make health insurance more affordable
4. Lower health care costs

This reform is not paid for, will raise the deficit, will not make health insurance more affordable, and will not lower health care costs.

No, you wouldn't. You're against all health care reform that isn't more free market (TM).

No, because I'm against THIS health reform and THIS health reform IS "more free market!" There is no public option, don't you know that? This is the mandatory purchase of insurance from private insurance companies! It's a giant boon to insurance companies because they get a captive market for their insurance (and can even raise their prices) because 32 million more people MUST buy their product!

What do you think this is? Socialized medicine? Universal single payer? Come on.

[Coito ergo sum]

Why do you think they delayed the implementation of this until 2014? What possible reason would they have to do that?

Do you have to buy automobile insurance?

No.

Why do you think that is?

Because in my state one only has to buy auto insurance if one drives a car on public roadways.

I agree it doesn't control costs.

Then we agree on that.

We can fix that.

"Can?" Yes, of course we "can." We won't though. Why? Because if they wanted to control costs they could have put that in the original bill in the first place. Why wait to control costs? You think the conservatives would have liked the bill less had there been cost controls in it?

You just want to whine and throw the baby out with the bathwater because you don't get to have your little libertarian utopia.

Go through your moronic false accusation at someone else. You just want to paint any opposition to the law as "whining" because it's easier than actually thinking.