U.S. passes "historic" healthcare bill

[NineOneFour]

Who thinks their premiums will be reduced by $2500 per year? http://www.breitbart.tv/20-promises-for ... -by-obama/

Wait...if you subsidize a bunch of families 100%, then their premiums are $0. So, that would reduce the average.....

Breitbart?

[NineOneFour]

Isn't the main point that millions of poorer people who could not get medical help when they need it will be able to? However you do it, get on with it.

To us in Europe it looks like the Dark Ages.

+1 the key number is 32 million - ie the number who will now be able to get treatment. The rest is mere middle class whining.

It's not even middle class whining. It's butthurt libertarian whining.

[NineOneFour]

Isn't the main point that millions of poorer people who could not get medical help when they need it will be able to? However you do it, get on with it.

To us in Europe it looks like the Dark Ages.

Europe ain't the center of the universe any more than the U.S. is. To us, the stories of how long it takes you folks to get in for an MRI or similar procedures is likewise "Dark Ages" -ish.

Longest wait times for health care on the planet: Canada

#2: United States

Deal with it. Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands, the UK, Spain, Portugal, Japan, Poland, Switzerland, France all have shorter wait times than the US.

Whether the main point is one thing or another, there were some very specific promises and assurances made many times over by this administration: (1) more affordable, (2) cheaper than it is now on average $2500, (3) "will not add one dime to the deficit," (4) reduce the cost of health care.

Perhaps that's all "sales puffery" and whatnot, and we should just say, "oh we know they were just saying that to get the fence-sitters on board" and we should just acknowledge that he was lying all along....but, before the 2008 election and since Obama took office I have been having it out with health care reform supporters who assured me that I was just crazy to think that this will add to the deficit, be more expensive and not reduce the cost of health care overall....now that it's through, I am inundated by sentiments like yours -- the "oh, who cares about those details" thing...

Yeah, who cares about the details, such as the CBO report that says it'll reduce the deficit, that it might help keep 44000 Americans from dying every year needlessly, and the fact that you won't pay a dime for it.

[NineOneFour]

Isn't the main point that millions of poorer people who could not get medical help when they need it will be able to? However you do it, get on with it.

To us in Europe it looks like the Dark Ages.

+1 the key number is 32 million - ie the number who will now be able to get treatment. The rest is mere middle class whining.

They are able to get treatment now.

That's a lie.

If you're going to trot out Emergency Rooms, don't even try it.

Plus, do you flipping realize that most of the 45 million uninsured (10 million illegal aliens and legal immigrants reduces that to 35 million): (a) about 12 million are eligible for Medicaid and SCHIP, but have not enrolled (and if they went in for any care, they would be enrolled then and there) (b) 9.7 million that make more than $75,000 a year, (c) 8 million make over $50,000 a year, and (d) according to the CBO, roughly 60 percent of the uninsured are under the age of 35, and fully 86 percent report that they are in good or excellent health.

Citation needed.

Note - any one making over $50,000 a year, my friend, the 17.7 million folks (more than half of the current uninsured) ARE NOT GOING TO GET ANY GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE! So, all this is doing is forcing them to buy health insurance and not giving them any assistance! 12 million of the uninsured would be covered NOW if they would enroll in SCHIP/Medicaid! So, that's 29 million or thereabouts of your 32 million uninsured!

So, we're spending 2.5 trillion dollars over 10 years to cover 3-5 million people. But, hey...it's worth it to "protect thah chill-run..."

Yeah, I'm certain that 44000 dead people a year 'chose' not to have health insurance...

[NineOneFour]

the key number is 32 million - ie the number who will now be able to get treatment. The rest is mere middle class whining.

Ah, but it's 32 million poor and old people, so they don't really count.

That's a complete misconception. First of all, old people are already covered by Medicare, so you can throw that nonsense out the window. Next, 17.5+ million of those 32 million make over 50,000 dollars a year or more (and are not helped by the new law in purchasing health insurance, they are merely forced to buy it on their own), and 12 million are already eligible for Medicaid an SCHIP but have not enrolled. A few million are in the middle and probably could be helped - might as well just pay for their fucking insurance and have done with it....it would be a tiny fraction of the cost...

You know what else this bill does?

It eliminates dropping people when they get sick.

It eliminates rejecting people due to pre-existing conditions.

It requires employers to offer health care and says they can't just dump health care (which some were doing without even notifying their employees).

It closes the Medicare donut hole that caused millions of seniors to have to pay more for health care.

Lifetime limits on how much health care you get are illegal.

A family of four that makes $88000 a year can be subsidized and you pay 3 to 9% of your income.

If your employers coverage covers less than 60% of your costs, you can be subsidized.

Medicare now pays for an annual checkup.

States cannot cut people from Medicaid until the health exchanges come on line.

Many preventive services are now offered without cost.

Annual out of pocket medical bills now capped at under $6000.

Medicaid's meager reimbursements raise to Medicare levels.

Limits on overhead and profit - insurance companies have to spend 80-85% on actual health care costs instead of profits.

Premiums of older people capped at 3 times that of younger people.

Anyone under 30 can buy catastrophic insurance only if they want, but it also must include 3 primary care visits per year as well.




So yeah, either you're a shill for the insurance industry or you didn't read the bill, did you?

[NineOneFour]

the key number is 32 million - ie the number who will now be able to get treatment. The rest is mere middle class whining.

Ah, but it's 32 million poor and old people, so they don't really count.

their reward will be in heaven, I expect

Old people are covered by Medicare.

Another lie.

Old people get 80% or so of costs covered by Medicare. If you are elderly, medical costs can skyrocket.

Children are covered by SCHIP and/or their parents' insurance through college. 12 million of the uninsured are already eligible for Medicaid and SCHIP, but have not enrolled.

The poor and disabled are covered by Medicaid and SSI.

17.5+ million of the uninsured make over $50,000 a year and obviously, according to the Democrats, can afford their own fucking insurance because the law that just passed and will be signed by the President requires them to go out and buy their own insurance at the "unaffordable" market prices without any government assistance at all.

Keep repeating those lies. I'm sure you can get people to believe them if you repeat them often enough.

[NineOneFour]

I'm saying there is not a problem requiring the complete overhaul of the health insurance system, the expenditure of (depending on who you talk to) 1.5 to 2.5 trillion dollars that we do not have, and the addition of a groundbreaking mandatory-purchase-of-health-insurance scheme which increases the deficit, increases the cost of health insurance and fails in its basic purpose of providing more efficient and less expensive health care to all.

You're channeling Glenn Beck, aren't you?

No, just the facts. I never watch Glenn Beck.

1. depending on who you talk to, the plan costs about 1.5 trillion to 2.5 trillion (most pessimistic) - and, we don't have that money, nobody disputes that.
2. It is most certainly a mandatory-purchase-of-health-insurance program, right? That is what it is right? They're not giving it away. It's not government provided. The law says individuals must buy insurance from private insurers (or otherwise get it, like from employers as they do now).
3. It will increase the deficit.
4. It does increase the cost of health insurance (or are you seriously arguing that by adding 32 million people, eliminating preexisting condition exclusions, and eliminating policies that have aggregate caps and high deductibles, you can make it cheaper?)
5. And, as a result it fails in the basic purposes announced by Obama: more affordable, cheaper health insurance for everyone, that "does not increase the deficit by even one dime?"

That, you think, is somehow Glenn Beck whacko nonsense? Really?

Yes.

LOL - so, which of my assertions is demonstrably false?

I'd say all of them, especially where you say you don't watch Glenn Beck. You at least listen to Beck, Limbaugh, Levin, Savage, Larsen, Ingraham, Hannity, O'Reilly, or some such hatemonger.

Or, are you seriously suggesting that the plan costs less than the most optimistic estimates, that we have plenty of money for it, that it is not a mandatory purchase of health insurance plan, that it will not increase the deficit, that it reduces the cost of health insurance, and it serves all the basic purposes proposed by Obama, including that it is more affordable insurance, cheaper than it is now (even though even the Democrats say that insurance costs go up under this plan), and does not increase the deficit?

That's what you're suggesting?

Yes.

[NineOneFour]

I don't like how if people don't buy healthcare they will be punished for it.

I wasn't thrilled with that either.. But if you make below a certain amount you'll get assistance in paying for it. If we were getting a public option this wouldn't be an issue.

The issue for my family is they make above that amount, and will now have to help support other people's health care.

Really? Your family makes above $250,000 a year.

Sorry, my heart isn't bleeding for you.

No they make over 42,000 a year.

You should stop automatically believing what people tell you.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010 ... scenario-2

[Twoflower]

Seeing as every time I read something about heathcare it changes, I honestly don't know what to believe. If you could explain it without being snarky that would be great.

[NineOneFour]

Seeing as every time I read something about heathcare it changes, I honestly don't know what to believe. If you could explain it without being snarky that would be great.

Please click on the NYT link. It's all there, dude!

[Twoflower]

Seeing as every time I read something about heathcare it changes, I honestly don't know what to believe. If you could explain it without being snarky that would be great.

Please click on the NYT link. It's all there, dude!

I did, it's probably because Im super tired, but I couldnt focus on any of it. I will re-read it tomorrow when I am awake.
Also I am a lady!!! Not a dude!!

[NineOneFour]

Seeing as every time I read something about heathcare it changes, I honestly don't know what to believe. If you could explain it without being snarky that would be great.

Please click on the NYT link. It's all there, dude!

I did, it's probably because Im super tired, but I couldnt focus on any of it. I will re-read it tomorrow when I am awake.
Also I am a lady!!! Not a dude!!

Sorry!!!

It's a great interactive site. It lets you select what situation your family is in, and go from there.

[Twoflower]

Seeing as every time I read something about heathcare it changes, I honestly don't know what to believe. If you could explain it without being snarky that would be great.

Please click on the NYT link. It's all there, dude!

I did, it's probably because Im super tired, but I couldnt focus on any of it. I will re-read it tomorrow when I am awake.
Also I am a lady!!! Not a dude!!

Sorry!!!

It's a great interactive site. It lets you select what situation your family is in, and go from there.

Thats great! I'll have to send it to my parents so they can figure out what it is they need to do.

[NineOneFour]

Seeing as every time I read something about heathcare it changes, I honestly don't know what to believe. If you could explain it without being snarky that would be great.

Please click on the NYT link. It's all there, dude!

I did, it's probably because Im super tired, but I couldnt focus on any of it. I will re-read it tomorrow when I am awake.
Also I am a lady!!! Not a dude!!

Sorry!!!

It's a great interactive site. It lets you select what situation your family is in, and go from there.

Thats great! I'll have to send it to my parents so they can figure out what it is they need to do.

If they're getting health care from their employers, they don't have to do anything. If they have been taken in by the scam of "health savings accounts", they need to let them expire this year and never ever do that again. But that's really true with or without the bill.

[FBM]

I think what Pluto2 is getting at is that the intensity of one's emotions is often inversely proportional to one's ability/willingness to listen to what others are saying and consider all the facts equally. Intensity often escalates in such touchy issues and sooner or later, somebody's going to stop playing nice, which is a no-no. I say this as someone who agrees with you in principle, if not in method of delivery.