response to emerging independent science on the 9/11 attacks

[Trolldor]

Utter bullshit. You are crediting the American government with competence. That right there tells me you are wrong.

No, I am not crediting anyone with anything. Wrong assumption.
And if an inside job, not by "the" American government but by other nefarious businessmen, planning a false flag event in order to get the USAgovernment involved. A good way to up their armament sales and getting a hold of the opium drug trade.

Have you followed the money trail?
There is plenty pointing to this. Follow the money trail.

No.

[Cunt]

You skipped over the posts asking you to identify the things in the 9/11 commission report that you take issue with: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/

Yes, I did, and you (probably) skipped doing a lot of research, or you would know exactly what i mean. -But of course, you are only 20, -according to what it says on your avatar-, so, it cannot be expected that you would have been able (or willing, or interested?) at 13 and 14 years old until now to have read and researched as much as i have.

But i will answer in one sentence: The entire 911 commission report should be labelled as the "ommission" report.
Just today, on one of the most popular political blogs, one can read about one aspect of this farce:
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2010/03/ ... d-911.html

So other than parroting blogs and other reputable sources, can you state what it is you think? Not quote what it is you think, but state it in your own words. Words you are willing to defend?

[Conny]

"How Your Truther Argument Can Be Made Even More Pathetic, A Guide To Stoking Your Delusion, by Randydeluxe"

Are you tired of just knowing deep down inside that something wildly different actually happened on Sept. 11, 2001 (than what all of the witnesses who observed the facts of the day and the investigators and journalists recorded)? Have your arguments become stale attacks on your opponents age, backed up by crackpot musings from people whose sole credential is the ability to create and publish the written word in blog form? Well worry yourself no more! By simply indulging in one or more of the following easy steps, you'll soon experience the joy of actively steering the argument even further away from coherence, relevance, and logical consistency.

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Step 1: Make a red herring argument that actually includes references to literal red herrings. Explain that the genus Clupea is never red except after it has been smoked, and this is exactly like 9/11.

Bonus points if you can tie this into the mental image of "smoke" rising from the WTT towers.

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Step 2: Everyone knows that George W. Bush is a criminal mastermind and guilty by association. To really mess with your opponent, tie the former American President to someone wholesome and innocent, then quote the bible on the subject of how the appearance of innocence is the guise of the devil.

Bonus points if Bush's wholesome association is actually someone's grandma.

Double bonus points if you're previously on the record claiming the bible to have no authority.

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Step 3: The confusion of cause and effect never slowed any good conspiracy theorist down, but it's so mundane! Spice it up by begging the question with this argument: "The governmental conspiracy to feign terrorism on 9/11 allowed the hijacker conspiracy to proceed unhindered without actually knowing that they existed."

Bonus points if you can get your opponents to acknowledge the two conspiracies by using your own pet names for them.

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Step 4: Refuse to debate in threads that you yourself started (and continue to otherwise participate in), by indulging in lines of questioning that shift the burden of proof to your opponents on arguments that you haven't actually made. If they still succeed in making points, claim that they have failed to address key underlying issues that have not been mentioned. Be very careful to not name any.

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Step 5 [OPTIONAL]: Just as Jesus will eventually return to earth and prove his believers right, your deep hope that 9/11 was an inside job will eventually be proven by a miraculous admission of guilt by some party to the primary conspiracy. Spend a lot of your effort building up the importance and power of minor players in Bush administration / Illuminati / C.I.A. so that you can anticipate victory at the deathbed of practically anyone who had a job to do on that day. State clearly that you are willing to wait for decades, if you must.

Bonus points if you make it clear that you're willing to accept a confession of guilt from someone who actually performed janitorial services.

funny you should write all of this, in light of the information that is available.

[Conny]

What I know of Griffin's views leaves me deeply unimpressed. He doesn't seem to approach the subject with any rigour or scepticism. I looks at hos stuff a while ago so I can;t quote you something, but I clearly recall seeing his arguments as very weak.

I'm not asking for a book. Just give us a summary of what you think did and did not happen. You can leave the real unknowns out for now. Focus on what you are confident about and could back up with evidence if asked to.

GrahamH,

If you really believe the USAgovt version, i'd like to see the evidence for their claims.

What i guess/presume happened is they used some patsies to take airplane lessons, so they could blame them later, got together with the owner of Twin Towers which were asbestos laden and no longer a revenue, slowly had "teams" place the army-made explosives (i am not versed in that stuff) highly insured the buildings, "fortified" a side of the Pentagon with certain missile guidance system, took some remote controlled jets, loaded them with extra explosive charges, re-routed two or three of the jets to Ohio, made them land. (who knows what happened to the passengers? they were forced to make phone calls?)( maybe put them all into the) one jet that got shot down over Pa.?, sent a missile into Pentagon via something that was made to look like a plane. Got people into the right position to say within an hour or so it was done by A-Q. Some decided to make even more money and took out put options on the airplane companies.
I can imagine some readers will say: all speculation, where is the evidence now. BUT that is not what Graham wanted. He wanted me to say what i think happened. So many people are now saying that the mossad had a hand in this whole thing. I wouldn't put it past them, but i wonder WHY- what their motivation to do this would be. So i'd like to remain sceptical on that part.
The arms industry wanted a war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Control over oil and poppy fields and a presence in the region. They needed a reason to go into war. They wrote and re-read Northwoods, they read a novel by an israeli that has this "story line". They probably thought, we control the media, we can pull it off: drone it into the heads of people (Bernays) enough times, and make disbelievers look stupid etc. etc.
What they forget is that the USA universities have (produced) independent thinking - smart people who are not afraid to speak up when they see foul play. Thank goodness.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...What i guess/presume happened is they used some patsies to take airplane lessons, so they could blame them later, got together with the owner of Twin Towers which were asbestos laden and no longer a revenue, slowly had "teams" place the army-made explosives (i am not versed in that stuff) highly insured the buildings, "fortified" a side of the Pentagon with certain missile guidance system, took some remote controlled jets, loaded them with extra explosive charges, re-routed two or three of the jets to Ohio, made them land. (who knows what happened to the passengers? they were forced to make phone calls?)( maybe put them all into the) one jet that got shot down over Pa.?, sent a missile into Pentagon via something that was made to look like a plane. Got people into the right position to say within an hour or so it was done by A-Q. Some decided to make even more money and took out put options on the airplane companies...

Wow. You've really hit upon the most parsimonious explanation of the available evidence there.

[GrahamH]

What I know of Griffin's views leaves me deeply unimpressed. He doesn't seem to approach the subject with any rigour or scepticism. I looks at hos stuff a while ago so I can;t quote you something, but I clearly recall seeing his arguments as very weak.

I'm not asking for a book. Just give us a summary of what you think did and did not happen. You can leave the real unknowns out for now. Focus on what you are confident about and could back up with evidence if asked to.

GrahamH,

If you really believe the USAgovt version, i'd like to see the evidence for their claims.

What i guess/presume happened is they used some patsies to take airplane lessons, so they could blame them later, got together with the owner of Twin Towers which were asbestos laden and no longer a revenue, slowly had "teams" place the army-made explosives (i am not versed in that stuff) highly insured the buildings, "fortified" a side of the Pentagon with certain missile guidance system, took some remote controlled jets, loaded them with extra explosive charges, re-routed two or three of the jets to Ohio, made them land. (who knows what happened to the passengers? they were forced to make phone calls?)( maybe put them all into the) one jet that got shot down over Pa.?, sent a missile into Pentagon via something that was made to look like a plane. Got people into the right position to say within an hour or so it was done by A-Q. Some decided to make even more money and took out put options on the airplane companies.
I can imagine some readers will say: all speculation, where is the evidence now. BUT that is not what Graham wanted. He wanted me to say what i think happened. So many people are now saying that the mossad had a hand in this whole thing. I wouldn't put it past them, but i wonder WHY- what their motivation to do this would be. So i'd like to remain sceptical on that part.
The arms industry wanted a war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Control over oil and poppy fields and a presence in the region. They needed a reason to go into war. They wrote and re-read Northwoods, they read a novel by an israeli that has this "story line". They probably thought, we control the media, we can pull it off: drone it into the heads of people (Bernays) enough times, and make disbelievers look stupid etc. etc.
What they forget is that the USA universities have (produced) independent thinking - smart people who are not afraid to speak up when they see foul play. Thank goodness.

Thank you Conny.

So, do you claim to have evidence to establish any of these things beyond reasonable doubt?

[llanitedave]

I can imagine some readers will say: all speculation, where is the evidence now.

No, that's not even speculation. It's sheer wishful invention. You could have with just as much credibility blamed goblins.

[Tigger]

Why is this topic in the "serious stuff" area?

[Trolldor]

I can imagine some readers will say: all speculation, where is the evidence now.

No, that's not even speculation. It's sheer wishful invention. You could have with just as much credibility blamed goblins.

Ah, but Goblins do exist.

[Animavore]

slowly had "teams" place the army-made explosives

How did they manage to stuff the building with explosives without anyone noticing?
Have you ever seen a building being demolished? You have to drill holes into the supporting columns, place in your explosives and then pack the hole in with cement out of which would be two wires one going to the columns on either side as they all have to be connected together in a circuit for detonation.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that no one noticed this happening in a building that runs 24/7? No one noticed yellow wires sticking out of the columns?
And who are these "teams" anyway? Where did they get them from? You don't honestly believe that patriotic soldiers who love their country would attack their own people do you? Who do you even ask to do that? How would you know which people would go for it and which would blow the whistle straight away? Ever heard of Watergate? A small handful of people can't even keep a secret let alone a few hundred.

And that's only one of your sentences in that completely illogical and unfounded piece you wrote!

Fuck sake.

[Tigger]

I admire the people who've responded to this nonsense with science and rational responses. Very measured arguments.

Faked moon landings anyone?

Is Obama a lizard?

[Trolldor]

A lot of people spend time refuting conspiracy theorists without realising it doesn't work, and here's why:

"That's what they want you to think!"

Anything which is contrary to what they wish is 'fabricated', part of the cover-up. It's like talking to a fundie.

[Clinton Huxley]

So, to summarise:-

1) They used some patsies to take airplane lessons, so they could blame them later,
2) got together with the owner of Twin Towers and which were asbestos laden and no longer a revenue,
3) slowly had "teams" place the army-made explosives (i am not versed in that stuff) highly insured the buildings,
4) "fortified" a side of the Pentagon with certain missile guidance system,
5) took some remote controlled jets, loaded them with extra explosive charges,
6) re-routed two or three of the jets to Ohio,
7) made them land. (who knows what happened to the passengers? they were forced to make phone calls?)( maybe put them all into the) one jet that got shot down over Pa.?,
8) sent a missile into Pentagon
9) via something that was made to look like a plane.
10) Got people into the right position to say within an hour or so it was done by A-Q.
11) Some decided to make even more money and took out put options on the airplane companies.

So, the only people who knew about the conspiracy were the patsies, the flight training company, the owners of the Twin Towers, the teams of army demolitions experts, the contractors who fortified the Pentagon and presumably the people working on that side of the Pentagon at the time, the contractors who made the remote-controlled jets, air-traffic control, agents forcing people to make phone calls, those who launched the missile at the Pentagon and the contractors who made the missile look like a plane, the stooges crediting it all to Al-Quaeda and the rest of the English-speaking world? Did I miss anyone out?

[GrahamH]

A lot of people spend time refuting conspiracy theorists without realising it doesn't work, and here's why:

"That's what they want you to think!"

Anything which is contrary to what they wish is 'fabricated', part of the cover-up. It's like talking to a fundie.

Yes, it is exactly like talking to a fundie. CTs have an unshakable faith in The Truth that has nothing to do with hard evidence.

[GrahamH]

So, to summarise:-

1) They used some patsies to take airplane lessons, so they could blame them later,
2) got together with the owner of Twin Towers and which were asbestos laden and no longer a revenue,
3) slowly had "teams" place the army-made explosives (i am not versed in that stuff) highly insured the buildings,
4) "fortified" a side of the Pentagon with certain missile guidance system,
5) took some remote controlled jets, loaded them with extra explosive charges,
6) re-routed two or three of the jets to Ohio,
7) made them land. (who knows what happened to the passengers? they were forced to make phone calls?)( maybe put them all into the) one jet that got shot down over Pa.?,
8) sent a missile into Pentagon
9) via something that was made to look like a plane.
10) Got people into the right position to say within an hour or so it was done by A-Q.
11) Some decided to make even more money and took out put options on the airplane companies.

So, the only people who knew about the conspiracy were the patsies, the flight training company, the owners of the Twin Towers, the teams of army demolitions experts, the contractors who fortified the Pentagon and presumably the people working on that side of the Pentagon at the time, the contractors who made the remote-controlled jets, air-traffic control, agents forcing people to make phone calls, those who launched the missile at the Pentagon and the contractors who made the missile look like a plane, the stooges crediting it all to Al-Quaeda and the rest of the English-speaking world? Did I miss anyone out?

Man, this thing is BIG!