Without evil there'd be no good ...

[charlou]

Hi Jakov, if you're still about. I don't think we had this topic here so thought to respond in a thread, and very interested in others' thoughts.

In the shitbox earlier:

Jakov « Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:36 am » im talking to someone about the problem of suffering, they say that line about "without evil there wouldnt be good, without pain there wouldnt be pleasure", does anyone know a forum thread i can read which has a good rebuttal

How about without pleasure there'd be no pain? Tell that to people who suffer chronic pain. Some babies are born suffering and die suffering. They need not have experienced pleasure to experience pain.

Pleasure and pain are a sensory/neurological thing, not some metaphysical/philosophical thing.


As for 'good/evil' ... My take is that each usually fosters more of its own like. IOW, neither is a prerequisite for the other, but each seem to be the best catalyst for perpetuating itself.

[Millie]

Very well said, Charlou.

The line of reasoning presented is as sound as saying “without black, there would be no white” or “without hot, there would be no cold”. One extreme does not create the existence of the opposite extreme. They both exist independent of the other.

That said; experiencing any extreme may make one appreciate ANY movement toward the other end of the spectrum.

eg: A person who experiences extreme pain every day for many months may find relief on a day when he/she is experiencing less pain – even if that “less pain” would be considered agonizing to anyone who did not spend the last several months in extreme pain.

I think that perhaps the "without X, there would be no Y" reasoning may stem from that perspective.

[Valden]

Hi Jakov, if you're still about. I don't think we had this topic here so thought to respond in a thread, and very interested in others' thoughts.

In the shitbox earlier:

Jakov « Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:36 am » im talking to someone about the problem of suffering, they say that line about "without evil there wouldnt be good, without pain there wouldnt be pleasure", does anyone know a forum thread i can read which has a good rebuttal

How about without pleasure there'd be no pain? Tell that to people who suffer chronic pain. Some babies are born suffering and die suffering. They need not have experienced pleasure to experience pain.

Pleasure and pain are a sensory/neurological thing, not some metaphysical/philosophical thing.


As for 'good/evil' ... My take is that each usually fosters more of its own like. IOW, neither is a prerequisite for the other, but each seem to be the best catalyst for perpetuating itself.

+1

[Hermit]

"Without evil there wouldn't be good, without pain there wouldn't be pleasure."

What irks me the most about this hollow cliché is that it is usually trotted out in order to defend the notion that "evil" and pain are necessary components of a creator's design, and if we don't see that it's obviously because our comprehension of god's wisdom is woefuly inadequate. Hence, the inscrutability of (insert your choice of name for imaginary god here)'s wisdom.

Please be fucked off, you bunch of self delusional and deluded wankers. "Pleasure and pain" as Charlou mentioned, "are a sensory/neurological thing, not some metaphysical/philosophical thing." and "good" and "evil" smack of ontological nonsense.

[jamest]

Hi Jakov, if you're still about. I don't think we had this topic here so thought to respond in a thread, and very interested in others' thoughts.

In the shitbox earlier:

Jakov « Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:36 am » im talking to someone about the problem of suffering, they say that line about "without evil there wouldnt be good, without pain there wouldnt be pleasure", does anyone know a forum thread i can read which has a good rebuttal

How about without pleasure there'd be no pain? Tell that to people who suffer chronic pain. Some babies are born suffering and die suffering. They need not have experienced pleasure to experience pain.

Hi.
You don't know anything about what it is like to die as a new-born baby, so you shouldn't be asserting that you have knowledge about 'their pain'.

Pleasure and pain are a sensory/neurological thing, not some metaphysical/philosophical thing.

Another assertion. If there was any proof for this, then 'metaphysics' would be out of business.

Your post is nothing other than a specific individual's subjective take on a specific issue. There was no justification for posting this in the philosophy forum.

Regards.

[Hermit]

Your post is nothing other than a specific individual's subjective take on a specific issue.

And your post is...?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Pain and pleasure are two ends of a sensory spectrum centered on meh.

(And yes, that was a serious opinion.)

[rachelbean]

Very well said, Charlou

There is some very bad logic in the idea that because two extremes exist currently, that one thing could not exist without the other. Also, while it may be true that some experience of pain will cause you to appreciate pleasure more, there is a limit to that and painful or traumatic experience can warp your perceptions of normally pleasurable experiences (i.e. someone who has been raped or abused may find any form of intimacy difficult, etc.).

[Valden]

Hi.
You don't know anything about what it is like to die as a new-born baby, so you shouldn't be asserting that you have knowledge about 'their pain'.

You do know what "pain" is right?
It's fairly easy to have knowledge about the pain a new born baby can go through, and through their lives, and considering many people know what it's like to "die" in general, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that dying in pain as a new born is no fun at all.

Another assertion. If there was any proof for this, then 'metaphysics' would be out of business.

Your post is nothing other than a specific individual's subjective take on a specific issue. There was no justification for posting this in the philosophy forum.

And yours isn't?

[Feck]

Oh no someone said - metaphysics-

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Oh no someone said - metaphysics-

Only one cure for metaphysics.

[charlou]

There was no justification for posting this in the philosophy forum.

General Serious Discussion and Philosophy. I am particularly aware of this as I named the forum when I set it up.

[Rum]

Up - down
Left - right
in - out
wrong - right
good - bad
pain - pleasure
life - death
yin - Yang
god - Satan


All false polarities but habitually classed together because of the way the human mind tends to order things.

[Hermit]

There is nothing false about the in-out polarity, I'll have you know.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

This crap ticks me off. I was "snowboarding" on the side of Mt. Etna one time, using a cooler lid as a board (c. 1975). I hit a dip in the snow and wound up entangled with three Italian cuties who were sunbathing, wearing nothing but bikini bottoms. At that precise moment I DID NOT think "Wow, if I hadn't been miserable a few years ago I wouldn't be enjoying this at all."

Dumbass idea is dumbass.