Sense of agency is generated in the brain?

[FBM]

The first-person perspective is associated
with activation of the inferior parietal, premotor and SMA on
the left side as well as the ipsilateral cerebellum7–9. Further evidence
in support of shared motor representation between mental
simulation of action and motor execution is provided by
experiments in patients with impairments in motor imagery
following parietal lesions10,11. Common brain regions are
involved during action generation, action simulation and
action observation (for a meta-analysis see ref. 12).

http://home.uchicago.edu/decety/publica ... tyNN01.pdf

If the first-person perspective is a product of this region of the brain, and if that region of the brain ceases to function for whatever reason, are you still a 'self', a 'me', an 'I'? Had this region of the brain NOT evolved as it did, would we still be individuals, even though we would not perceive ourselves as such? Could H. sapiens have survived without this adaptation? I'd welcome any input on this. I don't have an agenda, other than using your ideas to inspire thoughts to include in the paper I'm writing for philosophy class.

[Sisifo]

The first-person perspective is associated
with activation of the inferior parietal, premotor and SMA on
the left side as well as the ipsilateral cerebellum7–9. Further evidence
in support of shared motor representation between mental
simulation of action and motor execution is provided by
experiments in patients with impairments in motor imagery
following parietal lesions10,11. Common brain regions are
involved during action generation, action simulation and
action observation (for a meta-analysis see ref. 12).

http://home.uchicago.edu/decety/publica ... tyNN01.pdf

If the first-person perspective is a product of this region of the brain, and if that region of the brain ceases to function for whatever reason, are you still a 'self', a 'me', an 'I'? Had this region of the brain NOT evolved as it did, would we still be individuals, even though we would not perceive ourselves as such? Could H. sapiens have survived without this adaptation? I'd welcome any input on this. I don't have an agenda, other than using your ideas to inspire thoughts to include in the paper I'm writing for philosophy class.

I don't believe there is one element such as "the self". The self is the combination of many sensorial and endocrinal processes, that take place in many areas of the neurologic system. Question: A sensorial tabula rasa would develop a "self"? A human body unable to see. hear, taste, smell, or feel would develop thinking? abstract thinking? basic thinking?

Second question: Can "Self" exist as such without others? This is not an empty question. Extreme cases of isolated living (feral children) have been reported to incorporate the environment to their self beyond the level of ownership, but have a less strict attention to their own self in their risk behaviour. It would seem that empathy and imitation are foundamental in defining the self as we regard it. Empathy and imitation are located in other areas of the brain, and those are dependent of the areas in charge of identification.

All this is to say that I would portrait the self as a system built from the interconected faculties of the brain, not an isolated part of it, or a kind of nucleus around which the senses report.

Important question for your class: if the self would be really delimited in an specific area of the brain, the moment of its development, in the fetus, is the real and true moment of the creation of a human with rights, which would have big repercusions in moral and law...

Meh. Some mental onanism...

[FBM]

I'm with you on that. It seems that a person is more like a bundle than a single thing. I'm wondering if we would have any sort of concept of individuality or self-hood at all if it weren't for this area of the brain. Do you think we'd be feral? Would socities and 'civilization' have ever developed? I think not, but can't be sure. If nobody had a sense of ownership of his/her actions, there couldn't be any law, either, could there?

I was going to write the paper on free will/determinism, even though I don't really care much for the topic. It's just better than the other choices. I had an approach all planned out, but when I woke up this morning, I realized that it would fall apart. Now I've got to start over, and the deadline is tomorrow. I might just throw something together about the dubious existence of a creator. I've had a lot of practice with that one.

[SpeedOfSound]

Paper due tomorrow? God help you dude.

Let me read the paper and maybe we can shake something out. But not in time for you.

[FBM]

Paper due tomorrow? God help you dude.

Let me read the paper and maybe we can shake something out. But not in time for you.

Thanks, man. I've decided to start over from scratch. I'd send you what I have, but...I got nuthin' atm. I've got one thing going for me: time zones. Korea is about 15 or more hours ahead of Calif.

[Sisifo]

I'm with you on that. It seems that a person is more like a bundle than a single thing. I'm wondering if we would have any sort of concept of individuality or self-hood at all if it weren't for this area of the brain. Do you think we'd be feral? Would socities and 'civilization' have ever developed? I think not, but can't be sure. If nobody had a sense of ownership of his/her actions, there couldn't be any law, either, could there?

I was going to write the paper on free will/determinism, even though I don't really care much for the topic. It's just better than the other choices. I had an approach all planned out, but when I woke up this morning, I realized that it would fall apart. Now I've got to start over, and the deadline is tomorrow. I might just throw something together about the dubious existence of a creator. I've had a lot of practice with that one.

I think we would be dead, not feral. The sense of self prior to the abstraction of "I", is what makes the animal/us see an object coming to us and avoid its trajectory, or define our own trajectory and integrate us in a busy environment and adjust our path according to that. That primary sense of "self" is what combined to the development of abstract thought, creates the abstract idea of self.

Considering your well versed knowledge about the topic, why not a paper " Being: Thinking or Doing? a taoist wuwei and buddhist emptiness approach" I was going to try to write that myself, but I'd rather read it from you...

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I don't know if you might find this useful. It is a thread I started a while back - just an idea about 'self' and evolution I had that seemed to make sense.

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 53#p296044

[FBM]

I think we would be dead, not feral. The sense of self prior to the abstraction of "I", is what makes the animal/us see an object coming to us and avoid its trajectory, or define our own trajectory and integrate us in a busy environment and adjust our path according to that. That primary sense of "self" is what combined to the development of abstract thought, creates the abstract idea of self.

Considering your well versed knowledge about the topic, why not a paper " Being: Thinking or Doing? a taoist wuwei and buddhist emptiness approach" I was going to try to write that myself, but I'd rather read it from you...

I'm not sure I quite agree that we'd be dead. It's not clear to me that all sentient beings are self-aware. That is, I'm not sure that consciousness necessarily includes a sense of selfhood. Anyway, I'd love to write that paper and may do it some day, but I have only a limited range of choices. I have to write about one of 6 topics that are in our textbook. I'm only really interested in one of them, and I wrote about that in an earlier assignment. Now I have to write about something that I don't really care much about.

I don't know if you might find this useful. It is a thread I started a while back - just an idea about 'self' and evolution I had that seemed to make sense.

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 53#p296044

I will plunder it for inspiration, if not outright information...

[JimC]

I initially read this as "sense of urgency generated in the brain"

Possibly easier to demonstrate.

Growling sabertooth appears around the next bend. Brain and endocrine system do their thing. Feet do their thing...

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I don't know if you might find this useful. It is a thread I started a while back - just an idea about 'self' and evolution I had that seemed to make sense.

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 53#p296044

I will plunder it for inspiration, if not outright information...

If that kind of thing interests you, I can recommend Dan Dennett's Kinds of Minds. He discusses, using a mix of physiology and philosophy, the evolution of the mind, from pre-nervous system origins to us buggers. Quite a slim book too and very easy to follow despite some pretty heavy concepts.

[JimC]

I don't know if you might find this useful. It is a thread I started a while back - just an idea about 'self' and evolution I had that seemed to make sense.

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 53#p296044

I will plunder it for inspiration, if not outright information...

If that kind of thing interests you, I can recommend Dan Dennett's Kinds of Minds. He discusses, using a mix of physiology and philosophy, the evolution of the mind, from pre-nervous system origins to us buggers. Quite a slim book too and very easy to follow despite some pretty heavy concepts.

In the same vein, Steven Pinker's "How the mind works"

[FBM]

Yes, it does interest me, actually. Not wrt free will/determinism, but for ideas on how we can know, if we can, how things really are and how/why our filters seem to distort or edit out certain aspects of perception. I'll put your and JimC's recommendations on my reading list.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Yes, it does interest me, actually. Not wrt free will/determinism, but for ideas on how we can know, if we can, how things really are and how/why our filters seem to distort or edit out certain aspects of perception. I'll put your and JimC's recommendations on my reading list.

Add anything else you can find by Dennett as well.