Metaphysics as an Error

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Little Idiot
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:26 pm

newolder wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:... Enldsih tchears hvae to be tinaerd to sopt eorrrs as our 'bairn' or mnid sotrs wrods atuoamitlcy.
In a real brain, sorting costs. Sorting idiocy costs more – even in a “mind” mythological.
Also it means we have at least one way of knowing not dependent upon the emperical, which is good as we agree emperical method cant find Truth.
What is emperical? What is “cant” (a mis-spelling of Kundt, or what?) and “Truth”? It's not that you cannot find your own blind-spot, or is it? :ask:
Hello newolder, and welcome to the frey.
I mean emperical method as a way of gaining knowledge.
Truth means 'Absolute truth' used by SD I think. Personally I prefer 'changeless' or better 'timeless' as an adjective to distinguish the highest form of truth, but not everybody is bais like me. I believe the highest truth must be timeless and changeless, but others may not agree.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:31 pm

Newolder, would you do me a favour, and cast your expert eye over this Penrose clip?
Let me (us) know what you think, please.

EDIT to add <stage whisper; he is a physicist type>
Last edited by Little Idiot on Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Kenny Login » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:31 pm

Surendra Darathy wrote:Yeah. You have a learning disability. And assert that compensating for it will disadvantage you in some way. What a paradox! Do you think your disinclination is not an attitude? I accept your attidude, but not your obfuscation. The contention of online interlocutors that they have a learning disability or are diagnosed with Asperger's is old hat. The deficiencies of your discourse are not a result of your so-called "problem with words". Your thoughts are left incomplete.
Surendra, this is really ugly. I've learnt a lot from this thread so far but I'd hate to see the balance between interesting arguments vs insults tipped over the edge.

I loitered a bit on RDF but I was always reluctant to post much because I saw things too often turn into a playground pissing contest. You obviously know your stuff and I'd really like to stick around, as long as things can stay pleasant.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by newolder » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:35 pm

Little Idiot wrote:...
Hello newolder, and welcome to the frey.
I mean emperical method as a way of gaining knowledge.
Truth means 'Absolute truth' used by SD I think. Personally I prefer 'changeless' or better 'timeless' as an adjective to distinguish the highest form of truth, but not everybody is bais like me. I believe the highest truth must be timeless and changeless, but others may not agree.
:hilarious:
Do you have a source for that definition of emperical? Is the language you write European or off-earth?

Adding 'Absolute' and dropping the case for 't' does not help my enquiry. What example of 'Truth' can you share over an intertubez connection?

What has 'belief' got to do with anything, these days? :ask:
“This data is not Monte Carlo.”, …, “This collision is not a simulation.” - LHC-b guy, 30th March 2010.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:59 pm

Surendra Darathy wrote:
Little Idiot wrote: Some who dont understand Godel say 'ah you cant have absolute truth because of Godel' which is simply wrong. Do you agree with me or not?
I've eliminated almost all of your wasted effort, Little Idiot. You cannot have absolute truth because you cannot state it.

Look at your bullshit:
P1 If there is absolute truth, it must not change, or it is not absolute.
P2 Everything in time changes
C1 Absolute truth is not in time.
You've only stated that the unchanging does not change. This is not an achievement. Did you think you would not meet intelligent individuals online?

Look, LI: I like Yorkshiremen, if only as a prejudice based on the fact that Lawrence's character of Mellors spoke like a Yorkshireman. But please, don't try to do wordplay with me.
That is a very silly think to say. I have done far more than that. I have shown how Absolute truth is not part of time; therefore we can make a lot of progress, not wasting our time loosing in time is the first step to finding truth. It is also essential to understand that because of this we know empirical method is ineffective in the search.
That is not nothing but BS.
I am not 'doing word play'
YOU asked for statements about absolute truth; you think I am gonna pop out with truth and you will take me seriously?
"OK this is TRUTH; The physical world is a shadow in our mind, created by our mind's interaction with a far more imaginative awareness which is similar to our own awareness freed from its limitation of time and individuality. This 'Big Mind-like' is only active during the cosmic creation by imagination, but in-between the cycles it subsides into passiveness. This passive 'Big-Mind-like' is the ultimate truth, it is the only timeless formless change-less Source of all things. This is known to those who know by the fragile human mind sinking inwards into the still inner recesses, far from the sensual activity most of us call normal. Here, in the stillness he must fight and win the final battle, the victory over his own ego stands as the last bar on the gate. Should he be brave enough to offer himself in sacrifice, and wait outside the gate as a beggar, begging grace that he the unworthy may enter, willingly and knowingly loosing his very self as the price of entrance, he will find that on entering he enters the 'Big-Mind-like' and when he returns, he is born again, he is the adept in Wisdom and he has perceived beyond perception. Now the source is with him more intimate than any lover, and he see's IT in all things, and all things in IT. His words have power and his acts are inspired, but he is only the witness, the words and acts coming as-if from another.

EDIT to add paraphrase and compied from notes of Paul Brunton, one who knew.
Last edited by Little Idiot on Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:02 pm

newolder wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:...
Hello newolder, and welcome to the frey.
I mean emperical method as a way of gaining knowledge.
Truth means 'Absolute truth' used by SD I think. Personally I prefer 'changeless' or better 'timeless' as an adjective to distinguish the highest form of truth, but not everybody is bais like me. I believe the highest truth must be timeless and changeless, but others may not agree.
:hilarious:
Do you have a source for that definition of emperical? Is the language you write European or off-earth?

Adding 'Absolute' and dropping the case for 't' does not help my enquiry. What example of 'Truth' can you share over an intertubez connection?

What has 'belief' got to do with anything, these days? :ask:
I put that {EDIT belief} in for laughs. My opinion is as irrelevent as yours when it comes to the highest reality which is as it is regardless of our ideas.
But we should still try be as accurate as human though and language allows, IMHO.

Rearding Absolute, piss at SD he coined the phrase.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:21 pm

Kenny Login wrote:
Surendra Darathy wrote:Yeah. You have a learning disability. And assert that compensating for it will disadvantage you in some way. What a paradox! Do you think your disinclination is not an attitude? I accept your attidude, but not your obfuscation. The contention of online interlocutors that they have a learning disability or are diagnosed with Asperger's is old hat. The deficiencies of your discourse are not a result of your so-called "problem with words". Your thoughts are left incomplete.
Surendra, this is really ugly. I've learnt a lot from this thread so far but I'd hate to see the balance between interesting arguments vs insults tipped over the edge.

I loitered a bit on RDF but I was always reluctant to post much because I saw things too often turn into a playground pissing contest. You obviously know your stuff and I'd really like to stick around, as long as things can stay pleasant.
Thanks Kenny.

SD you know, you can insult my arguments all you like. I am not the arguments.
I only mentioned this issue in relation to Luis' post, and I dont want or need your pity.
I think I have tried to be polite and pleasent to you in the past.
That was a nasty attack. An unprovoked and viscious personal attack.
(Although it is aimed at my ego, which I do not regard as any more significant than any other ego, and so I wasnt hit by it on first reading, I have every right to be offended.)

I want you to apologize within 24 hours, or I will report the post.

Like Kenny, I will not be staying around for long if this is acceptable on this forum.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Surendra Darathy » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:02 pm

Little Idiot wrote:That was a nasty attack. An unprovoked and viscious personal attack.

I want you to apologize within 24 hours, or I will report the post.
Sorry, LI. I have contributed serious criticism of your "philosophy". This is only an open internet forum, and I guess I shouldn't demand responses from you that address my criticisms.

For the record: The derail on learning disabilities was initiated by you, personally, in your response to Luis Dias, as you've already noted.
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:04 am

Little Idiot wrote:@ SoS and anyone else interested
My 'maths post'

I proved and demonstrated once already that mathematical knowledge exists without dependence on the empirical, you failed to dispute that point as I recall, please feel free to refer me to the post where you did dispute that point, if I missed it or if I am in error - as I may be, having but the intellect of a human.
<sniggers at the fools who think intellect is measure in volume terms, such as 'planet size'>
Actually, you haven't said why it is knowledge. The point is that knowledge can be defined quite clearly. The problem with mathematics is that if one accepts that as knowledge, one is basically allowing purely analytical statements. There's nothing in mathematics that we didn't put there.
DISCLAIMER 'beyond*' and 'start*' are spatial and temporal term applied out side the space-time domain for suggestion of meaning - this does not suggest that I am ignorant of the inappropriate use of these terms, they are used for simplicity and for the purpose of suggestive communication only.

Assuming you can not disprove my earlier proof - in maths we do have proofs of course, assuming you can not dismiss my argument; then I have shown, and Penrose agrees (he's a mathematician, physicist and a lot smarter than anyone here even 'the planet' ) - I suggest tentatively along with the vast majority of the academic maths community - that maths describes an existence and a reality beyond the empirical.
So because Penrose thinks x it must be the case? What's the relevance of Penrose or the 'vast majority' of the academic maths community? Mathematical platonism isn't as popular as it used to be, by the way. Neither is what I'm suggesting popular, but I find it hard to believe we are now submitting these question to the popular vote, or to the discretion of Penrose.
The fact that it is possible to construct mathematical models as Penrose (which may or may not be accurate – that’s not the point at this stage) does in the clip I link below of 'beyond*' the 'start*' of our space-time, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that our maths does not need our space-time to be real, and thus does not need our empirical or physical to be real. Can you dispute that?

Not only does it prove mathematics can exist outside space time, it proves the principle of a human inside space-time discovering knowledge about 'beyond*' space-time, and I am happy to say it is empirically testable - we can in principle test the current physical world for traces of the previous one; he uses the analogy of looking at the ripples on a pond AFTER the rain stops to figure out where each rain drop fell.
This is so awful it doesn't deserve a response.
Sorry for over editorializing the clip, but it makes me think; 'FUCK FUCK FUCK! that’s Fucking awsome.'
Note; I never swear - when did I last swear on the forum? and the fact that I did so 4 times here doesn’t even begin to show how Fucking awesome that is.
I still can't believe they let you teach physics to people. :shock:
Anyway I thought I'd share the link with you guys, now, honest answer please; doesnt that make you think the same?
(see how I give you an easy opener for a counter attack? I dont give a #0($ )
Yeah. No one takes Penrose - or Hameroff for that matter - seriously. It's a bit like you and jamest - no one takes you seriously either.
The fact that it destroys your J team's petty argument (that we need the emperical to get knowledge, that metaphysics is invalid because all knowledge depends on the physical etc.) is trivial compared to what it actually really means.
Strawman. My argument never asserted that we needed the empirical to get knowledge, it established empiricism as a source of knowledge. Second, metaphysics isn't invalid because all knowledge depends on the physical, metaphysics is a failed project because there is no evidence or argument for its possibility.
What it means is that we have a verifiable way of knowing if there have been previous universes.
Also it means we have at least one way of knowing not dependent upon the emperical, which is good as we agree emperical method cant find Truth.
The question of previous or next universes is entirely separate from metaphysics. :yawn:
The original arrogant bastard.
Quod tanto impendio absconditur etiam solummodo demonstrare destruere est - Tertullian

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:34 am

Little Idiot wrote:I have shown how Absolute truth is not part of time
Um, no, Little Idiot. You have asserted that "absolute truth" exists, and asserted that as part of your definition, "absolute truth" does not exist in time. You have not made the merest iota of a smidgen of an attempt to show how "absolute truth" or (if you prefer) "timeless truth" is possible, let alone stating any of it, notwithstanding Paul Brunton's word salads.

Look at your bullshit. Again. And again:
P1 If there is absolute truth, it must not change, or it is not absolute.
P2 Everything in time changes
C1 Absolute truth is not in time.
This is a shorter word salad, but that is all that it is.
Oh? OK. And the following is somehow distinguished from being an opinion?
Little Idiot wrote:OK this is TRUTH; The physical world is a shadow in our mind, created by our mind's interaction with a far more imaginative awareness which is similar to our own awareness freed from its limitation of time and individuality. This 'Big Mind-like' is only active during the cosmic creation by imagination, but in-between the cycles it subsides into passiveness. This passive 'Big-Mind-like' is the ultimate truth, it is the only timeless formless change-less Source of all things. This is known to those who know by the fragile human mind sinking inwards into the still inner recesses, far from the sensual activity most of us call normal. Here, in the stillness he must fight and win the final battle, the victory over his own ego stands as the last bar on the gate. Should he be brave enough to offer himself in sacrifice, and wait outside the gate as a beggar, begging grace that he the unworthy may enter, willingly and knowingly loosing his very self as the price of entrance, he will find that on entering he enters the 'Big-Mind-like' and when he returns, he is born again, he is the adept in Wisdom and he has perceived beyond perception. Now the source is with him more intimate than any lover, and he see's IT in all things, and all things in IT. His words have power and his acts are inspired, but he is only the witness, the words and acts coming as-if from another.
Not only is it an opinion, but also a vacuous word salad. LOOK!
our mind's interaction with a far more imaginative awareness
And you know this feeling of "interaction" is not just a brain fart? How? Bent any spoons lately? :drunk:
the ultimate truth, it is the only timeless formless change-less Source of all things
Well that explains why the descriptions of it are so, um, non-descript, even with Upper Case. :shiver:
known to those who know
Not only that, those who know, don't say! And those who say, don't know. So keep on jabbering! :levi:
sinking inwards into the still inner recesses
The warm folds of the universal cunt envelop you. Talkative acolytes always lead with their tongues. :eddy:
wait outside the gate as a beggar, begging grace that he the unworthy may enter
You want it sooooo bad! :doh:
he is born again, he is the adept in Wisdom and he has perceived beyond perception
Everything that goes in must come out. The alabaster temple calls... :|~
words and acts coming as-if from another
Forget it then. How would I know they know what they're doing? Trust in Jayzus. :yawn:
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Proof that kills relativism

Post by jamest » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:06 am

The relativists' claim is that there is no way to know of anything, other than 'E' (the empirical realm).

Now, let's attend to the subset of 'E' - that is, the constituent parts of E (henceforth 'Es'), such as the Sun, other stars, the Earth, water, trees, pigs, humanity, etc. etc.. Though I really want to focus upon 'you', the individual itself (henceforth 'ii').

Now, how does the ii observe/see/perceive (or whatever word the J-team choose) the members of Es? From the point of view of logic, there can only be two possible stances:

1) The ii observes Es as they are, externally to itself. That is, the ii observes Es as they are, apart and distinct to itself.
2) The ii observes Es representationally and internally to itself. That is, the image of Es is generated within the ii.

There are no rational alternatives - where one entity sees another, that vision must be internal or external to the viewer. This is a necessary addendum to the relativist stance, although [seemingly] he is probably ignorant of this necessity. We can now go on to develop this line of thought:

If '1' (see above), then an ontology is implied, since it is necessary that each individual of Es must BE separate and distinct to one another. This is commensurate with the general materialist outlook - which is a metaphysic; hence not facilitating a rejection of [other] metaphysics.

If '2', then it becomes clear that 'E' must necessarily be distinct, yet integral, to the ii. That is, E must be reducible to the ii, since it is merely a representation, generated by the ii within itself.
This position is not commensurate with idealism/solipsism, since no denial or refutation of an 'external realm' has [yet] been forthcoming. That is, at this juncture, nothing has been said sufficient to invoke any ontology, nor to refute relativism. However, further progression can be made:

If '2', it has been shown that E is reducible to the ii, since each observed entity (Es) is [internally] self-generated. That is, no single member of Es is the ii itself. Formally:

1) If Es is internal to E.
2) And E is internal to the ii.
3) Then E is not internal to Es (not internal to constituent part(s) of E), and:
4) Therefore, the ii is not synonymous with Es (the ii is not a member of Es)... and therefore, not synonymous with E (the ii is not in the empirical realm).

Here, if '2', the conclusion is that there is 'something' that exists that is distinct to the empirical realm, that gives rise to that realm. This 'thing' provides a basis/grounds/opportunity for metaphysics. It also provides sufficient basis to reject the relativist claim that "there is no way to know of anything, other than E (Es)", since the progressive logic of '2' does facilitate such knowledge. In a nutshell, it renders relativism as baseless... and therefore, as obsolete. Dead.


Metaphysics is grounded... is justified... is alive! :tiphat:

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Re: Proof that kills relativism

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:40 am

jamest wrote:Now, how does the ii observe/see/perceive (or whatever word the J-team choose) the members of Es?
People were making maps before Galileo was dropping things from the Leaning Tower. In fact, they were making maps before Archimedes made observations about hydrostatic displacement.

Why do you think people found it in their interest simply to arrive at agreed-upon descriptions of geography? Why do you think that accuracy of mapping was important to them?

Is not a map simply an agreed-upon description of geography, rather than some theory about "the way things really are"?

Do you think people went about making maps without communicating to one another instructions for making a map?

Your wibbling questions seem to assume that communication is impossible. It certainly is for these indescribable metaphysical situations. That's the difference between science and wibbling.

Empirical observations are made successfully by following the directions for making empirical observations. Want to find the planet Jupiter in the sky? You need an azimuth and a declination, and you need to know what the local time is. People rapidly settled on standards for these sorts of things. Do you understand what the word "standard" refers to?
That is, no single member of Es is the ii itself.
The reason is that clear communication procedures for making empirical observations takes the subjective point of view and shoves it somewhere. There are only the instructions for making the observation. You don't have a choice about how to find those empirical objects. The instructions don't permit it.

The remainder of your ramblings do not deserve even a dissection of their incoherence.
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Re: Proof that kills relativism

Post by jamest » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:51 am

Surendra Darathy wrote:Empirical observations are made successfully by following the directions for making empirical observations.
Really? I've been observing things all of my life without any fuggin direction from anyone. Guess that makes me a genius - though a bad father, for not telling my daughter how to 'observe'.
Oh well, pm me a copy of those directions, will ya.
Good night.

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Re: Proof that kills relativism

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:57 am

jamest wrote:
Surendra Darathy wrote:Empirical observations are made successfully by following the directions for making empirical observations.
Really? I've been observing things all of my life without any fuggin direction from anyone.
None of your observations has helped you do much more than keep from running into brick walls. You do that by taking a break once in awhile from contemplating your infundibulum. Your observations certainly do not merit publication. Let us know if you spot any UFOs.

:funny:
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:31 am

Surendra Darathy wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:I have shown how Absolute truth is not part of time
Um, no, Little Idiot. You have asserted that "absolute truth" exists, and asserted that as part of your definition, "absolute truth" does not exist in time. You have not made the merest iota of a smidgen of an attempt to show how "absolute truth" or (if you prefer) "timeless truth" is possible, let alone stating any of it, notwithstanding Paul Brunton's word salads.
Thank you for confirming exactly the point I was making, which as I stated "YOU asked for statements about absolute truth; you think I am gonna pop out with truth and you will take me seriously?" right before the piece you gleefully attack bellow.
I was showing, as I stated, that what ever I actually say; if I jump in and say absolute truth is <imsert anything> then even if I achieved a perfect statement despite saying earlier this is impossible for all human language, and despite not actually claiming to have access to the said truth there is absolutly no way that I would be taken seriously.
Therefore, if we are to talk of 'absolute truth' we need to start at the beggining. This is what I did before you started ranting.
Since you didnt seem to be getting my point I showed by example; I 'made a statement' and sat back to watch your reaction even though the very words before it say its not to be taken seriously :funny:
Look at your bullshit. Again. And again:
YOU sir are the one spouting bullshit. Even if my logic is in error, a reasonable response would entail showing why one of the C's is wrong or one of the P's doesnt follow from them.
But no, you assert that I am bullshitting.
Which C is an error? Which P is an error?
Oh no I forgot, my logical argument is not worth your effort - strange how you spent so many words on attacking it though....
Anyway, the very first step is to show what absolute truth is not and where it can not possibly be to help distinguish possible truth from certain error, dont you think?
But I tire of repeating my self for you, I said the exact same thing first time you reviewed my informal logic with little more depth of insight than the word 'Bullshit'
LI in the earlier post wrote:That is a very silly think to say. I have done far more than that. I have shown how Absolute truth is not part of time; therefore we can make a lot of progress, not wasting our time loosing in time is the first step to finding truth. It is also essential to understand that because of this we know empirical method is ineffective in the search.
P1 If there is absolute truth, it must not change, or it is not absolute.
P2 Everything in time changes
C1 Absolute truth is not in time.
This is a shorter word salad, but that is all that it is.
Oh? OK. And the following is somehow distinguished from being an opinion?
Sucker punch landed on you, again; thats my point, it is no more than an opinion. Thats why we have to start at the beggining and establish such a framework to identify exactly this point of what can be and what can not be truth, which I did above.
Thanks for quoting the exact post where I clearly made the same point. Saves me doing it.
Last edited by Little Idiot on Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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