Announcement about RDF Part 3.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...I will take a punt and guess that they've decided that they decided just to lose the notice ASAP, and are pondering what (if anything) to do next...

I'm also wondering whether the prolonged lack of response (since 'outrage') is because the full extent of the shit-storm unleashed has started to dawn on Richard, and he's simply feeling out of his depth.

I only hope that someone (PZ perhaps) is in contact with him, and is urging calm and reflection on his part. The worst possible next response from him would be to fly off the handle again, but I suspect if he were going to do that he'd have done it by now.


I doubt very much we're going to get a complete apology or U-turn from him, nor is he at any time soon going to change his "something rotten in the state of the internet" view (let's face it, that view had been brewing in his mind long before recent events), and I think there's pretty much zero chance of him ever dropping Josh (although 'Chalkers' could be made a sacrificial lamb). I also can't see him reinstating the forum.

However what we might get from him (and which would help alot) is...

* An acknowledgement from him that there are very genuine grievances on the part of members and (particularly) staff.

* Some sign that he understands the true chronology of events.

* An apology to staff for being mislead, and for misleading the membership about the staffs involvement/approval with the changes.

* A further, fuller acknowledgement of all the hard work put in by staff over the years.

* A recognition that there was no possible justification for account deletions.

* Allowing the media articles over these events to be posted on the RD.net front page, and allowing people to comment on the events (within the bounds of the usual rules regarding ad-homs e.t.c)


I know for many people this would be woefully insufficient, and I too would ideally like him to go further, but I think this is the furthest I can imagine him going (and I'm not even saying he's at all likely to go this far).

Whether he does do any/all of the above will depend to some extent on whose advice he's getting, and whether he's in a mood to take it. As I suggested above, I think PZ could be a great calming influence on him, assuming he's in touch. Although I also fully recognise that PZ is under no obligation to get involved in this at all. It's not his fight, and he owes us nothing.

[95Theses]

I emailed this to PZ,

Dr Meyers - Re the Dawkins forums

Hello,

I realise perfectly that you no longer want anything to do with this (and I suspect you didn't in the first place) however, I wish to ask you one favour (which you certainly don't owe me or anyone else)

We now have proof that Richard is quote mining in his 'Outrage' piece, and we have proof that the thread on RDF about the changes is in no way vitriolic or in fact unreasonable to any sane reader, certainly nothing that warranted shutting the forums early.

It is apparent that either Richard is being lied to by Josh or Richard thinks that lying and quote mining are perfectly acceptable things to do if it supports your position. I fervently hope it is the first, as this proof is now getting disseminated across the net by as many people as possible, including on Pharyngula.

I only ask that you pass this proof to Richard so that we can be sure it is not being intercepted, as I am afraid PM's to him may be screened, quite possibly because he has asked Josh to do this.

If indeed he is aware, then that is his business, if he is not aware, then having concrete proof on the internet that he is lying and quote mining can only be of harm to his reputation. I will present the proof below.

Many Thanks

Yours

***My Name***
-------------------------------------------------

The truth about the Thread on RDF that was apparantly so filled with vitriolic rage that it required the early closure of RDF forums

Recovered from a browser cache of a member online at the time and posted online now, here is the thread in question, or the 12 pages that were cached :

http://thinking-aloud.co.uk/temp/rdf.html

Nothing like what Richard describes, in fact remarkably well mannered in my opinion.


---------------------------------------------------

Quote mining - 1 example of many

Richard Says :

*******
"Or suppose that somebody on the same website expressed a “sudden urge to ram a fistful of nails” down your throat."
*****

Implying that someone was threatening to track down and inflict violence on Josh in their comments to him. However, If we go to the rationalia website (which you commented in), we find that it was posted after the RDF forums closed, and what was said is as follows,

First Lord Pasternack says ;

*****
"The bottom line is that I personally am far more offended by Josh's 'handling' of this debacle than I am of the initial decision."
*****


At which point ficklefiend quotes the above and states :

******
When someone tells me they know that change can be frightening in order to at both times shut me up and patronise me, I get the sudden urge to ram a fistful of nails down their throat.

So, yeah, bad handling.

(I'm glad you've sent a letter. A few well known names with calm and honest opinions might at least wake RD up to what has been done, even if he doesn't care)
*****

Clearly the second poster thinks that the whole thing has been badly handled, and the reason for this is because if people patronise and try to shut hip up by telling him that 'Change is frightening' he gets the urge to shove nails down their throat. Then he goes on to say that he hopes some people send nice letters to Richard and it all gets worked out.

It's hardly vitriolic outpourings of rage is it?

[Horwood Beer-Master]

I emailed this to PZ...

I don't think PZ is in any way unaware of the nature of the situation (he's visited us here after all), it just comes down to whether-or-not (and how) he decides to intervene.


As I said above, he owes us nothing. But he could be of great help.

[z8000783]

...I will take a punt and guess that they've decided that they decided just to lose the notice ASAP, and are pondering what (if anything) to do next...

I'm also wondering whether the prolonged lack of response (since 'outrage') is because the full extent of the shit-storm unleashed has started to dawn on Richard, and he's simply feeling out of his depth.

Not at all.

This has probably consumed more of his time than he wanted it to and he is now simply waiting for the whole lot to blow over, which of course it will, well .... until the new forum is up and running anyway at which time it will all start up again.

John

[klr]

I emailed this to PZ...

I don't think PZ is in any way unaware of the nature of the situation (he's visited us here after all), it just comes down to whether-or-not (and how) he decides to intervene.


As I said above, he owes us nothing. But he could be of great help.

He could. Hopefullly RD will listen to a fellow scientist and comrade in the fight for reason, even if he ignores the same message coming repeatedly from the great unwashed. Human nature.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

I emailed this to PZ...

I don't think PZ is in any way unaware of the nature of the situation (he's visited us here after all), it just comes down to whether-or-not (and how) he decides to intervene.


As I said above, he owes us nothing. But he could be of great help.

He could. Hopefullly RD will listen to a fellow scientist and comrade in the fight for reason, even if he ignores the same message coming repeatedly from the great unwashed. Human nature.

A fellow scientist and comrade in the fight for reason, but just as important, someone who 'gets' the nature of the internet better than Richard does, particularly it's human element.

[NineOneFour]

...I will take a punt and guess that they've decided that they decided just to lose the notice ASAP, and are pondering what (if anything) to do next...

I'm also wondering whether the prolonged lack of response (since 'outrage') is because the full extent of the shit-storm unleashed has started to dawn on Richard, and he's simply feeling out of his depth.

What shitstorm?

Really, this hasn't had that much play in the media.

The Front Pagers are revolting now and when that forum is shut down, there will be again chaos, but any manufactured excuses will look exceptionally hollow.

I only hope that someone (PZ perhaps) is in contact with him, and is urging calm and reflection on his part. The worst possible next response from him would be to fly off the handle again, but I suspect if he were going to do that he'd have done it by now.

I'd say PZ wants to keep the Hell out of it, by the looks of things.

I doubt very much we're going to get a complete apology or U-turn from him, nor is he at any time soon going to change his "something rotten in the state of the internet" view (let's face it, that view had been brewing in his mind long before recent events), and I think there's pretty much zero chance of him ever dropping Josh (although 'Chalkers' could be made a sacrificial lamb). I also can't see him reinstating the forum.

I doubt we'll hear a peep from him.

However what we might get from him (and which would help alot) is...

* An acknowledgement from him that there are very genuine grievances on the part of members and (particularly) staff.

* Some sign that he understands the true chronology of events.

* An apology to staff for being mislead, and for misleading the membership about the staffs involvement/approval with the changes.

* A further, fuller acknowledgement of all the hard work put in by staff over the years.

* A recognition that there was no possible justification for account deletions.

* Allowing the media articles over these events to be posted on the RD.net front page, and allowing people to comment on the events (within the bounds of the usual rules regarding ad-homs e.t.c)

Don't bet on it.

I know for many people this would be woefully insufficient, and I too would ideally like him to go further, but I think this is the furthest I can imagine him going (and I'm not even saying he's at all likely to go this far).

Whether he does do any/all of the above will depend to some extent on whose advice he's getting, and whether he's in a mood to take it. As I suggested above, I think PZ could be a great calming influence on him, assuming he's in touch. Although I also fully recognise that PZ is under no obligation to get involved in this at all. It's not his fight, and he owes us nothing.

[InYourFaceNewYorker]

Guys... You've done all you can. Let it rest for now. Remember that Richard is probably very busy with his book tour or whatever he's in Australia for. Yes, I understand that he's responded to articles on his website, but keep in mind that this situation is of several orders of magnitude higher than responding to an article and he may need more time. I'm not saying that I think he'll definitely respond. I don't know. I hope he does. But for now, give it a rest. You've done everything you can, and then some. If this is still not sorted out in a month, then try again.

That's my suggestion, anyway...

Julie

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...What shitstorm?

Really, this hasn't had that much play in the media...

Yes, but the fact it had play at all in the media, was probably far more than Richard had anticipated when the decision to replace the forum was first made.

...Don't bet on it...

I wasn't 'betting on it'. Did it sound like I was?

[NineOneFour]

...What shitstorm?

Really, this hasn't had that much play in the media...

Yes, but the fact it had play at all in the media, was probably far more than Richard had anticipated when the decision to replace the forum was first made.

Nothing his brand can't weather.

...Don't bet on it...

I wasn't 'betting on it'. Did it sound like I was?

A bit...

[95Theses]

Guys... You've done all you can. Let it rest for now. Remember that Richard is probably very busy with his book tour or whatever he's in Australia for. Yes, I understand that he's responded to articles on his website, but keep in mind that this situation is of several orders of magnitude higher than responding to an article and he may need more time. I'm not saying that I think he'll definitely respond. I don't know. I hope he does. But for now, give it a rest. You've done everything you can, and then some. If this is still not sorted out in a month, then try again.

That's my suggestion, anyway...

Julie

No.

if we do that he wins and it doesn't matter what the truth is.

I intend to try and force him to respond to this.

He is lying and quote mining and I'm not standing for it. We should hold our own to higher standards than we even hold creationists to.

[klr]

I emailed this to PZ...

I don't think PZ is in any way unaware of the nature of the situation (he's visited us here after all), it just comes down to whether-or-not (and how) he decides to intervene.


As I said above, he owes us nothing. But he could be of great help.

He could. Hopefullly RD will listen to a fellow scientist and comrade in the fight for reason, even if he ignores the same message coming repeatedly from the great unwashed. Human nature.

A fellow scientist and comrade in the fight for reason, but just as important, someone who 'gets' the nature of the internet better than Richard does, particularly it's human element.

That as well.

[klr]

Guys... You've done all you can. Let it rest for now. Remember that Richard is probably very busy with his book tour or whatever he's in Australia for. Yes, I understand that he's responded to articles on his website, but keep in mind that this situation is of several orders of magnitude higher than responding to an article and he may need more time. I'm not saying that I think he'll definitely respond. I don't know. I hope he does. But for now, give it a rest. You've done everything you can, and then some. If this is still not sorted out in a month, then try again.

That's my suggestion, anyway...

Julie

No.

if we do that he wins and it doesn't matter what the truth is.

I intend to try and force him to respond to this.

He is lying and quote mining and I'm not standing for it. We should hold our own to higher standards than we even hold creationists to.

+1. Ultimately, this is for his own good as much as for anyone else's. If he doesn't undo the damage, just think of what will happen the next time he holds forth on the need for truth, evidence and accountability.

[95Theses]

Fucking Hypocrite.

[klr]

Fucking Hypocrite.

See? It's going to follow him around like a bad smell, even what what he says is completely correct in its own context.