Christianity - A respectful dialogue

[CookieJon]

Considering God is an immaterial entity, I do not find it strange at all. Why do you expect evidence for the existence of
God?

You're inconsistent.

1. You first claimed that your "sensus divinitatis" is evidence (to you, anyway) by which God can be known.

2. If there is no evidence, then by what right do you consider all the things that happen in the Bible to be relevant at all? The bible Claims there is evidence (all those miracles, burning bushes, etc)... in fact the bible itself is often claimed as evidence. So please clarify, is there, or is there not expected to be evidence of your particular brand of God?

3. Finally, you ask why do we expect evidence? The answer: Because there is a precedent of being given evidence - didn't you know that?? Thomas did not believe Jesus had been resurrected, and when the skeptical Thomas asked for evidence, did Jesus say "Why do you expect evidence?", as you've just done? NO! Jesus GAVE HIM THE EVIDENCE HE ASKED FOR by letting him see and touch his wounds.

So your question should really be, "Why was there plenty of evidence for the existence of God in a time when people were very superstitious anyway, but in modern times (when we've got the ability to record the evidence, or explain 'miraculous' phenomena with science) there is no evidence whatsoever??"

Why did god change his mind about his policy of providing evidence, just when we really need it??

[trubble76]

Good grief, not this poster again, under yet another guise. The same tired, arse-about-face arguments. Like this "defeater" of yours. You say in the absence of any evidence it is perfectly rational to believe something simply because there exists no water-tight evidence to "prove absolutely" that it doesn't exist. It is a moronic argument. You have had Russel's Teapot explained to you before, so i can only assume that you define logic differently to rational people. Organised religion is a festering puss-filled cyst, throbbing and ugly. Insane theists that claim their own flavour of religion should be the default position for all people, and keep repeating it despite being shown the flaws in their arguments simply show me i would rather burn in hell for eternity than spend a single second in heaven with their "loving and eternally merciful" god and them.

You called me wicked, i thought you lot were taught to judge not, lest you be judged instead. I also thought that son-of-himself chap said something about being nice to people, even enemies. So i'm sure you'll forgive me when i say the day i accept the deranged preaching of a failed godist is the day jebus drinks satan-come while a chior of angels sing Ace Of Spades in german.

[Feck]

Over and over again Atheists are not asking anyone to believe in anything that there is no evidence for. You are asking everyone else to dedicate their lives and those of others on the vague feeling that there is something bigger than us,something outside every single human, animal or plants experience .

I got no reply about a previous post Every human has felt Deja-vu why does this not prove that we are old souls and have lived past lives ?
If you are saying that a desire to find a "reason for it all " or some sort of "first cause" proves that there must be a god why only one?Why your god not one of the myriad of others ? Just because there was something outwith this universe (or not ) that you call god where does the all loving all knowing still looking down on us stuff come from ? Why if every human has an inbuilt mental system working to find cause and effect because that is how we learn stuff can you not understand that if we don't have evidence we tend to make stuff up ... luck superstitions etc . Why if everyone thinks that all unicorns are white and therefore we all have a conceptual and indeed visual knowledge of what a unicorn is are they not real ?

In fact why am I bothering to post this? you haven't bothered to answer any of these questions but you started by saying that I was being deliberately
"wicked" a term I think You have to explain to me because obviously I am to stupid to understand .
You also missed the point of the fractal would it have been easier if I had found one of those sweeet pictures of two sets of foot prints on a beach but only one figure in the distance?
I'm sorry that I did not translate any of this post into latin apparently it must be true if it's in latin!
You have not answered one single question that anyone has put to you ! And if you are even going to try and say that I need faith to understand then I would point out that I have spent a hell of a lot of time in altered states and have seen heard and felt lots of things that had no RATIONAL explanation ... strangely humans over millennia and across the globe have seen heard and felt the same things .Does this mean that they are true or does it just mean human brains are similar and prone to the same delusions ..... Oh no I have the Strongest feeling I have been here before ....past life ? or have you and others like you lost this bloody argument over and over again ? I do not know why you are here ...do you think you will get into heaven if you make converts ? some sort of celestial pyramid selling scheme ? Do you keep thinking that the attitude " god is so special you poor atheists cannot/will not understand." helps anyone ?
I would suggest that nothing you have said makes any more sense than thinking that thunder is the angry gods stamping their feet .

[drl2]

- Humans have a sensus divinitatis, which allow them to know that the proposition "God exists" is true,without any empirical evidence needed. Those who deny that the proposition "God exists" is true purposely reject the spirit in their wickedness.

Humans have a cartoonus veggitailus - we tend to try to anthropomorphize everything, right down to those damned talking-vegetable animations my mother-in-law keeps trying to foist off on my kids. "God" is just the result of us trying to do the same to the universe.

[Valden]

How about directly responding to our questions?
(I smell a troll)

Some skeptics often accuse Christians of not providing evidence, but rarely do skeptics provide justification for what they believe, or don't believe, and often make assertions that are not logically proven or supported by evidence, and simply assumed to be true.

Evidence, thanks!

It seems to me that behind the question: "where's your evidence", there is the belief that our belief must be supported by evidence to be rational. May I ask why should I accept this claim? Where's the proof? Where's the evidence?

Please, where is your evidence? You have yet too provide any.

There is virtually no philosopher today to adhere to this idea. Indeed a lot of our core belief about the world are not supported by evidence.

Beliefs =/= supported by facts aka evidence.

What is the evidence that the world is real and not an illusion?

You tell us.
Will be waiting!

What is the evidence the world was not created 5 minutes ago in the state it was 5 minutes ago?

Go to Bing.com and google "How old is the Earth." You will find plenty of evidence there.

What is the evidence other people than me have a mind, and are not just programmed robots? As far as I can see, none.

That sounds delusional.

If I simply know that God exists,

How do you "know"?

the same way people have the conviction the universe is real and not an illusion, what good reason is there to reject that belief?

They lack evidence so they do not "know" that the universe is not real.

Personal beliefs do not magically change evidence of facts.

The only reason I see that I would reject that belief is if I don't want God to exist.

Hogwash.

And indeed it seems to me that atheists hate the idea of God, and hate the idea of being morally accountable.

Now if some people believe there is no such thing as a sensus divinitatis,

You haven't even bothered to provide any evidence that it exists! Belief has NOTHING to do with it.

they are entitled to their opinion,

I prefer facts.

but I'm wondering on what basis skeptics accuse theists of being irrational.

Delusions are a good start.

Whatever slogans, or principles, the skeptic uses (like the one "Calli" is using), has that principle been proven with empirical evidence? Has it been proven with logic?

What on earth are you going on about?

[thedistillers]

You haven't even bothered to provide any evidence that it exists!

So what? You have not even started to provide a semblance of an explanation as to why I should provide any evidence to you.

[thedistillers]

...God is an immaterial entity...

The boogeyman is also an immaterial entity. Do you believe in the boogeyman?

No.

[thedistillers]

You are asking everyone else to dedicate their lives and those of others on the vague feeling that there is something bigger than us,something outside every single human, animal or plants experience .

I don't recall asking everyone anything in particular. I'm only looking for a dialogue.

I think there is some misunderstanding here. The SD is not a "vague feeling", it's the inner conviction that the proposition "God exists" is true, without having any evidence that God exists, the same way I'm convinced the universe is real and not an illusion, even though I don't have a shred of evidence the universe is real.

[CookieJon]

I don't recall asking everyone anything in particular. I'm only looking for a dialogue.

Well I've responded to you twice now, with questions for you, but you've ignored me so I shalln't bother any more.

Perhaps you only want dialogue with yourself and the voices in your head?

[statichaos]

The manner in which thedistillers is attempting to participate in this supposed "dialogue" is why it's hard to be a theist on a forum like this: we don't care to be lumped into that group with him.

Of course, this is also the reason that it's important to be a theist on a forum like this.

[FBM]

I don't think there is a way to find out if what we believe is really true. I think there are many core beliefs that we assume to be true in the absence of a defeater. And in my opinion, it's a perfectly rational way to deal with reality.

I hope this doesn't sound disrespectful, but maybe you're working with a different definition of 'rational' from the rest of us. I don't see anything rational about belief in something for which there is no evidence, or about believing in something just because it makes you feel good, or because it can be imagined, or because you think it's hypothetically possible, or because of tradition, or because there are very old stories about it, or because somebody I like/love also believes in it. Those things are logical fallacies, ie, errors in reasoning, therefore irrational and unreasonable.

[Feck]

YOU CALLED MY FRIENDS AND I WICKED >>>>> IN FACT YOU CAME IN OUR FUCKING HOUSE AND CALLED US WICKED NOW ANSWER MY QUESTIONS !

[goodboyCerberus]

You haven't even bothered to provide any evidence that it exists!

So what? You have not even started to provide a semblance of an explanation as to why I should provide any evidence to you.

Think about what you're saying. You're a theist, you're the one with a belief. You're even the one who started this thread.



Here's an explanation: We're damned. Your god, if it exists, knows what it will take to save us. You can help, you could be its vehicle. Convince us.

[CookieJon]

Here's a starter:

- Humans have a sensus divinitatis, which allow them to know that the proposition "God exists" is true,without any empirical evidence needed. Those who deny that the proposition "God exists" is true purposely reject the spirit in their wickedness.

Discuss.

Also (this must have been pointed out?) but does the OP not see the enormous hypocrisy in starting a thread called "a respectful dialog", then in the very first post accusing everyone of "wickedness"??

Discuss? I'll discuss... buy a dictionary and look up the word "respectful" before coming in here and slinging outrageous insults at those from whom you want some respect.

Pft!

[thedistillers]

Hey cookie,

I'm going to bed soon, I'll answer your other post tomorrow.

I didn't mean it as an insult, according to Christian theology ALL humans are wicked and desperately need Christ's blood to wash away their sins. So even though I do think nonbelievers reject the Spirit and the Truth because they are wicked, I also think believers are wicked and need to persist in their faith to achieve Christlike perfection.