Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by Robert_S » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:47 am

Matthew Bailey wrote:OK, so what I get is that people were caught flatfooted by the admins, and then felt that the Admins behaved in a disreputable manner.

If this is the case, then it will eventually be discovered one way or another.

As for all else.... I can understand how feelings have been hurt, and that sucks big time (I'm having my own hurt feelings at the moment that may be keeping me from seeing the larger picture in this. I had to give up two cats over the week to Animal Care and Control in SF because I couldn't find new homes for them).... I would rather give Richard the benefit of the doubt and make certain in the future to take precautions against being caught flatfooted by a mod or admin again.

Matthew Bailey
I'm very sorry to hear about the cats and I hope Animal Care can find a place for them. It is always sad to hear when that happens.



I do give Richard the benefit of the doubt and it looks like the vast majority of the people who signed the letter did also.

I really think he does not have a clear grasp of what a net community is and what it can mean to people. The record of thousands, perhaps millions of hours of real people's thoughts and emotions are in that database. To hear that called trivial just floors me.
Matthew Bailey wrote:I hate to be the man out here, but I think that there may have been an overreaction to what has taken place at the RDF.

Doesn't anyone think that maybe we should give the new discussion area/forum/whateverit'sgonnabe a chance before we condemn the place?

Matthew Bailey
If it were a matter of letting the forum tie up loose ends and finding a new home for the lighter side of the community over a month or two while implementing a new system that was nice and reputable, I think it would be great, even tough I wouldn't really be thrilled at the transitional period.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by NineOneFour » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:17 am

Matthew Bailey wrote:I hate to be the man out here, but I think that there may have been an overreaction to what has taken place at the RDF.

Doesn't anyone think that maybe we should give the new discussion area/forum/whateverit'sgonnabe a chance before we condemn the place?

Matthew Bailey

No.

First off, these people have already deleted posts and tried to prevent the saving of everyone else's posts. They have deleted not the posts of anyone offensive, but many innocent people.

Second, they attempted to shut down any way for us to contact each other to 'man the lifeboats'.

And these are the same people you want to be able to decide which of your posts meet their standards for inclusion in this new discussion area?

I vote no.

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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:47 pm

:ditto:
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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by hackenslash » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:51 pm

Hi, Matthew. Really glad you made it.

I have only one word in response, that quite neatly encapsulates the whole affair:

Rickroll
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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by Flora » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:39 pm

Copy of letter sent from the RDnet forum staff
Dear Richard
We hope you will find time to read this letter, which is from all the forum staff.

We are all deeply saddened that the forum will be deleted in 28 days time. In just over 3 years, it has grown to become the busiest atheist forum on the Internet. On average since last October, the forum has been getting 3,000 posts per day, of which about 2,000 per day are focused on science, reason and your work. The front page average is a fraction of that at 200 - 300. The social posts on the forum only comprise about 1/10 of all posts per day so there is a great deal of substance being discarded.

Staff were told that the science and reason forum content would be migrated to the new site and we offered to help with this. Then 2 days ago, we were told that there was a change of plan and all the forum content would be deleted in 30 days. Members have been told that they can copy their posts and repost them on the new site. This is complete nonsense because it isn't individual posts that make up the forum, it's the discussion threads that are significant and members don't have the ability to migrate whole threads across. That's what the staff were going to do for them. This is now not going to happen and over 3 years worth of threads debunking creationism & woo, challenging theism, supporting new atheists etc will be wiped out.

Andrew and Josh have now announced that the forum has been made 'read-only' due to the inappropriate actions of staff. This is 'spin' at its finest as it fails to acknowledge that their own inappropriate actions resulted in this debacle in the first place. The announcement that the forum was shut down because some staff posted the letter sent to them and made some public complaints is nonsense. The letter was exactly the same as the one posted publicly to the members with the addition of letting staff know that their services wouldn't be required at the new website. They also told staff what they shouldn't do:
[snip - eg email Richard, inflame the users, start any petitions, relocate groups of users to other forums.]

We decided to post this letter on the forum as it explained succinctly that staff wouldn't be required and also let people know that they shouldn't expect staff to take any action on their behalf. Andrew and Josh removed the
letter and they could have also removed the staff's permissions as they said they didn't trust staff anymore. They didn't have to make the forum 'read-only' for everybody in order to gag the staff. The fact is that they needed the staff to deal with all the complaints that would inevitably have been thrown at the forum for the next 30 days. In other words, they expected the staff to give up their free time to act as police and lavatory cleaners for a month, without a word of dissent themselves, and then just stand aside and watch the forum they'd worked so hard for be deleted. Not much to ask was it?

Since their announcement, you have made one yourself entitled "outrage" which contains copies of some insulting comments about Josh. None of these comments came from the RD forum. They were all posted on various other websites after the forum was locked. Someone has harvested these quote-mines from other websites and presented them to you as justification for locking the forum. Your announcement also contradicts the admin announcement which says that the reason the forum was locked was due to the staff.They are also saying that they aren't trying to stop people from going off into other forums but right from the start, they prevented members from having any links/information in their signatures and changed the PM system to make it virtually unworkable so that members can't contact each other easily.

Andrew and Josh could have handled this so much better if they had taken up the offer we made a while ago to advise them on how to make the transition. They don't have any leadership skills or experience but several of us on the staff do this professionally and have years of experience managing change with large and diverse groups of people. This offer was ignored and instead, they have provided a textbook example of how not to do it. This also includes putting the blame on people for reacting badly to their ill-conceived actions. The fact that they either didn't expect such a reaction or just didn't care, serves to emphasise their ignorance of how to work with large groups of people and how to manage change.

We have all worked so hard to support your mission because we passionately believe in it. You and your work have been our inspiration to keep going on days when we were verbally abused and threatened by trolls. The staff are highly intelligent people but we were prepared to spend hours of our own time doing low-level and mundane moderating tasks to keep the forum organised, facilitate focused discussions and solve people's technical problems. We were also able to use our skills and expertise in fostering a sense of community and ensuring that all people could post there, free from homophobic, sexist or racist abuse. That's a significant part of why it has
become the most popular atheist forum on the Internet because it's a lively, challenging and supportive environment.

The Foundation's decision to remove the forum is one we deeply regret but we acknowledge that as volunteers, it's not our concern. However, we could have used our skills and expertise to help develop the new discussion area, transfer content over and manage the transition for the membership as smoothly as possible. Andrew and Josh rejected that offer and as we were told recently that we weren't allowed to contact you about any forum
matters, we weren't able to make that offer to you personally.

At the moment, we feel deflated and dismayed while we watch the destruction of such a successful forum but despite that, we continue to wish you well and we sincerely hope that the new website is successful in achieving the Foundation's goals, which is what were striving for with the forum.

Sincerely
The forum staff
Copies of the letter were also sent to the Front Page Co-ordinator, The Executive Director of RDFRS and the Foundation Trustees


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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by kiki5711 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:11 pm

Life" has set up a forum for RDF members here: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/index.php
Ass kissers!!!!!! Image blah blah blah.com come here to talk about rational thoughts and evolution!!!! bull fuken shit!

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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by Flora » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:26 pm

kiki5711 wrote:
Life" has set up a forum for RDF members here: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/index.php
Ass kissers!!!!!! Image blah blah blah.com come here to talk about rational thoughts and evolution!!!! bull fuken shit!
Are you angry about something Kiki? I'm not sure what you are saying.

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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by kiki5711 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:30 pm

Flora wrote:
kiki5711 wrote:
Life" has set up a forum for RDF members here: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/index.php
Ass kissers!!!!!! Image blah blah blah.com come here to talk about rational thoughts and evolution!!!! bull fuken shit!
Are you angry about something Kiki? I'm not sure what you are saying.
I'm sorry Topsy, but seeing everyone coming here for cover, then making some other forum, sort of identical to Richards just seemed to me like ass kisssing. Let him come look for us.!!!! Not us begging him to take us back.

That's all.

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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by virphen » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:33 pm

kiki5711 wrote: I'm sorry Topsy, but seeing everyone coming here for cover, then making some other forum, sort of identical to Richards just seemed to me like ass kisssing. Let him come look for us.!!!! Not us begging him to take us back.

That's all.
It's more a matter of not wanting to force all the hardcore serious & heated scientific and philosophical on the rats people... this is a comfortable hangout, with the hard intellectual discourse less of a priority. It's all cool, you can be here and there or both or neither.

Both forums are extremely friendly to each other, as far as I can see. Long may that stay the case :td: .

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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by kiki5711 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:36 pm

virphen wrote:
kiki5711 wrote: I'm sorry Topsy, but seeing everyone coming here for cover, then making some other forum, sort of identical to Richards just seemed to me like ass kisssing. Let him come look for us.!!!! Not us begging him to take us back.

That's all.
It's more a matter of not wanting to force all the hardcore serious & heated scientific and philosophical on the rats people... this is a comfortable hangout, with the hard intellectual discourse less of a priority. It's all cool, you can be here and there or both or neither.

Both forums are extremely friendly to each other, as far as I can see. Long may that stay the case :td: .
Yes, but you can hang on a little longer to make your point of how the membership was treated. Make a stand. You can live for a few days without debating about the same old shit over and over again.

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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by Flora » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:41 pm

kiki5711 wrote: I'm sorry Topsy, but seeing everyone coming here for cover, then making some other forum, sort of identical to Richards just seemed to me like ass kisssing. Let him come look for us.!!!! Not us begging him to take us back.

That's all.
OK I think I see what you mean but I'm not sure you are right. Nobody is begging Richard to take us back. The RD.net forum is dead but its members aren't and they need somewhere to go.

When his new discussion area opens, some RDF people will post there and he'll also get new posters. It won't be a forum and that's what lots of people want, particularly as they contributed so much content to RD's own forum and gained so much pleasure, challenge, support and friendship in the process.

RD and the Foundation have decided they don't want a forum anymore but for those who do, there is an alternative and many of us are using that opportunity so generously provided by "Life".

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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by Shielson » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:30 am

As the copious words prompted by the revamp and temporary closure of Richard Dawkins’ forum attest, those by Peter Harrison not the least, truth takes many forms.

Having read some of Peter’s past missionary devotions delivering angst-ridden waifs from the evil clutches of their Christian relatives, I’m not really all that surprised. Who better for erecting damning edifices on the skimpiest of evidence, expediently boosting own web-site’s hits and personal stocks no end?

Who better indeed than one who purveys “magic/mentalism material for other performers” for turning a sow’s ear into the proverbial silk purse, or what had become a pit of vulgar imbecility and infantile drivel, a theatre of navel-gazing, bickering narcissists into that once hoped-for oasis of reason.

And instead of the one lately overseen in the main by inept clowns more concerned with sating own bloated egos and in playing favorites than in maintaining acceptable debating standards. As Richard shrewdly asked, “Have private fiefdoms been unwittingly trampled?”

Our drama queen’s latest wordy rant sees a subtle change though, with the blame now more safely shifted to Josh and Andrew, although not totally.

“Of course, it is a possibility that Dawkins knows this and is lying to us all. You never know. But my personal opinion is that he isn’t. Richard may be saying awful things about us that aren’t true, but that doesn’t stop me from being on his side. Some have accused me of being an enemy of Dawkins. This is not the case. He has been as much of an inspiration in my life as the community we helped create, and he still is.

“Is this really newsworthy? It’s very sad for those involved, and I thought it was worth taking some to explain what actually happened, but surely this isn’t something the general public are going to be interested in. I think a lot of people currently have a lack of perspective. My tiny little blog has had tens of thousands of visitors in a few days, I’ve had phone calls and emails from The Times and Channel 4, and offers to write articles for magazines. I’m shocked that so many people are discussing this.”

In that case, lay off and give us all a break, Peter!

Arriving at similar conclusions a while back, I obviously concur wholeheartedly with Richard’s ‘outrage’ remarks. Occasionally I even surmised if it wouldn’t be worthwhile to spit the forum into two, one section for mature adults with the rest reserved for the majority, let us say those of a more childish disposition, and as naturally embracing most of the USA contingent.

Moreover, in Richard’s shoes, who’d wish to remain associated with a forum enveloped in large part of inane dross and vulgar, point-scoring banality? And as a vehicle for promoting Dawkins’ products, Richard may well have concluded that the damage to his personal reputation had started to outweigh the commercial benefits.

The new forum will favour quality over quantity, with the opening of new topics requiring prior approval (so doing away with the opening of duplicate topics by desperadoes merely avid in seeing their names up in lights!) Who could ask for more?

The idea that that Richard, or Josh and Andrew for that matter owe some kind of debt for moderators’ past exertions is absurd. No one forced them to consent to this role nor did anyone, as equally applies to any other poster, insist they’d gratuitously compile oh-so erudite posts bolstering own sense of self-importance and communal standing. In exchange for bringing in prospective customers and keeping things on an even keel, they were given the opportunity to ego-trip to their hearts’ delight: paid in full.

Finally, if Josh made any mistakes it lay in the initial idea of keeping the forum open for another thirty days: shutting it down completely on account of ‘technical difficulties’ and not reopening till fully reorganised may have been preferable.

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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by virphen » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:37 am

Shielson wrote:As the copious words prompted by the revamp and temporary closure of Richard Dawkins’ forum attest, those by Peter Harrison not the least, truth takes many forms.

Having read some of Peter’s past missionary devotions delivering angst-ridden waifs from the evil clutches of their Christian relatives, I’m not really all that surprised. Who better for erecting damning edifices on the skimpiest of evidence, expediently boosting own web-site’s hits and personal stocks no end?

Who better indeed than one who purveys “magic/mentalism material for other performers” for turning a sow’s ear into the proverbial silk purse, or what had become a pit of vulgar imbecility and infantile drivel, a theatre of navel-gazing, bickering narcissists into that once hoped-for oasis of reason.

And instead of the one lately overseen in the main by inept clowns more concerned with sating own bloated egos and in playing favorites than in maintaining acceptable debating standards. As Richard shrewdly asked, “Have private fiefdoms been unwittingly trampled?”

Our drama queen’s latest wordy rant sees a subtle change though, with the blame now more safely shifted to Josh and Andrew, although not totally.

“Of course, it is a possibility that Dawkins knows this and is lying to us all. You never know. But my personal opinion is that he isn’t. Richard may be saying awful things about us that aren’t true, but that doesn’t stop me from being on his side. Some have accused me of being an enemy of Dawkins. This is not the case. He has been as much of an inspiration in my life as the community we helped create, and he still is.

“Is this really newsworthy? It’s very sad for those involved, and I thought it was worth taking some to explain what actually happened, but surely this isn’t something the general public are going to be interested in. I think a lot of people currently have a lack of perspective. My tiny little blog has had tens of thousands of visitors in a few days, I’ve had phone calls and emails from The Times and Channel 4, and offers to write articles for magazines. I’m shocked that so many people are discussing this.”

In that case, lay off and give us all a break, Peter!

Arriving at similar conclusions a while back, I obviously concur wholeheartedly with Richard’s ‘outrage’ remarks. Occasionally I even surmised if it wouldn’t be worthwhile to spit the forum into two, one section for mature adults with the rest reserved for the majority, let us say those of a more childish disposition, and as naturally embracing most of the USA contingent.

Moreover, in Richard’s shoes, who’d wish to remain associated with a forum enveloped in large part of inane dross and vulgar, point-scoring banality? And as a vehicle for promoting Dawkins’ products, Richard may well have concluded that the damage to his personal reputation had started to outweigh the commercial benefits.

The new forum will favour quality over quantity, with the opening of new topics requiring prior approval (so doing away with the opening of duplicate topics by desperadoes merely avid in seeing their names up in lights!) Who could ask for more?

The idea that that Richard, or Josh and Andrew for that matter owe some kind of debt for moderators’ past exertions is absurd. No one forced them to consent to this role nor did anyone, as equally applies to any other poster, insist they’d gratuitously compile oh-so erudite posts bolstering own sense of self-importance and communal standing. In exchange for bringing in prospective customers and keeping things on an even keel, they were given the opportunity to ego-trip to their hearts’ delight: paid in full.

Finally, if Josh made any mistakes it lay in the initial idea of keeping the forum open for another thirty days: shutting it down completely on account of ‘technical difficulties’ and not reopening till fully reorganised may have been preferable.

Go away, troll.

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Re: Please sign here/Open Letter - RE: Richard Dawkins Forum

Post by 95Theses » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:40 am

virphen wrote:
Go away, troll.
:clap:
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell.

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