Time for some restraint?

[TheoJones]

I didn't fully engage in the RDF forums, largely because at the point in time when they launched, I was stinging from not one, but two prior internet screwups of epic scale.

I was involved in the aborted attempt to set up a version of the NCSE in the UK - the 'BCSE'. Haven't heard of it? good. it was horrible. I (and other well meaning people) put in a truckload of hours at the back end, and in the end it was horribly derailed by people who really just wanted a forum to have a good old moan about the christians. Actual positive action? yeah, in your dreams. the other one? I'm not going to mention in public - and it should be obvious why.

Here's how it looks to me.

Josh Timonen is arrogant, and doesn't "get" forums.
The RDF Forum seems to have mirrored the usual arc of community forums, becoming "not quite" what was envisaged.
The decision has been taken to kill it, rather than hand it over to someone else or any of the other options which would have avoided this situation.
The handling has been poor, leading to a PR situation.

So, the Moderators who gave time and energy are (quite rightly) offended and hurt, especially because their contributions are not being acknowledged.
Timonen is probably smarting (again, quite rightly) about being called unpleasant names and having HIS contributions undervalued.
RD is probably just not wanting this whole mess to be associated with his good name.

My big questions...

Who does it help to keep the news cycle going? the old forums are not coming back but surely rationalia will be a better location anyway? The community has not been destroyed. It has moved, is resilient and life goes on. But what is it for? Do we still care about advancing atheism and rational thought?

Richard Dawkins remains a very high profile advocate of atheism and science - does it help anyone except the religious if he is attacked and demonised?

really, truly and at the heart of this - does anyone outside of the affected group really care about the exact situation of what happened here? will it matter in a week? or a month? will anyone remember this in 2013?

I think that Atheists and Rational thinkers need to get past the emotional hurt and start thinking strategically again. The RDF had issues, but that doesn't make them the enemy. I almost choked when I saw someone calling Timonen the "other side" - They are NOT the other side. They are on OUR side.

The real "Other Side" will be laughing their socks off already. if this debacle doesn't blow over and keeps being fed by people desperate to make the "truth" known... they'll still be laughing about it for months.

So please... can we move on?

[cowiz]

It's pretty much moved on

[virphen]

I still care in the sense that the information publicly propagated about the forum staff is completely misleading.

Sure they are generally anonymous, and known only by their forum names, but it must suck magnificently to see mistruths about you aired so publicly.

They have my complete support.

[TheoJones]

I still care in the sense that the information publicly propagated about the forum staff is completely misleading.

Sure they are generally anonymous, and known only by their forum names, but it must suck magnificently to see mistruths about you aired so publicly.

They have my complete support.

It sure does. I had a hate blog about me, and a wikipedia page calling me all sorts. It stinks... but a year later, it doesn't matter...

but we will still be fighting stupid school districts rules on teaching evolution, faith schools etc... and I think this sort of stuff only hurts the big picture.

[ficklefiend]

It's kind of out of our hands now. We took a few days, vented our anger. Now the bruises left across the atheist community will probably be held aloft and used against Dawkins in entirely the wrong way. Business as usual really.

[irreligionist]

Your take on what's happened (in your OP) looks about right to me.

I don't see RD being attacked or demonised. The reason this whole thing is still going on is because of the misinformation and RD's decision to be outraged. Oh, and the small matter of censorship and shutting down ways for people to regroup and move to a forum with all the people they've got to know in their time on RD.net.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

A good post, Theo. This pretty well sums up the situation as far as I am concerned.

One point: You ask if anyone will be thinking about this months, even years ahead? Sadly, yes. There will be those that will never let go of this, that will carry it with them and that will badmouth Dawkins at every opportunity. Most, myself included, made a few inflammatory posts in outrage at the start of the thing, have moved on from that to rational discussion and will then eventually it slip from their consciousness unless reminded. There are a few however, that will make it their life's work to do that reminding. I know this because I have been witness to several such schisms in the past and that is what always happens.

Some people invested so much into the cult of Dawkins, rather than the validity of his ideas, that they feel completely and utterly betrayed by this. Those people will never move on unless they can examine NOT the reasons for this debacle, but the reasons for their original infatuation with that cult.

[I'm With Stupid]

No, it's made me examine the entire purpose for the foundation existing in the first place. Like it or not, the forum was a huge part of its work, and switching to a closer and more tightly moderated forums seems to be more in the interests of Richard Dawkins' PR than the wider goals he claims to stand for. This event has brought his entire integrity into question for me. That wouldn't make a shite of difference if he was merely a man giving opinions, because he'll live and die by the strength of the evidence, but as someone to front a campaign on all of our behalf, I now have massive question marks about him. Continue to support him if you want, but personally, I think I'll be lending my support to something like the NSS instead, who as far as I can tell, have done far more to highlight the intrusion of religion into society. I see their reasoned arguments in the newspapers far more than Richard Dawkins'.

[TheoJones]

No, it's made me examine the entire purpose for the foundation existing in the first place. Like it or not, the forum was a huge part of its work, and switching to a closer and more tightly moderated forums seems to be more in the interests of Richard Dawkins' PR than the wider goals he claims to stand for. This event has brought his entire integrity into question for me. That wouldn't make a shite of difference if he was merely a man giving opinions, because he'll live and die by the strength of the evidence, but as someone to front a campaign on all of our behalf, I now have massive question marks about him. Continue to support him if you want, but personally, I think I'll be lending my support to something like the NSS instead, who as far as I can tell, have done far more to highlight the intrusion of religion into society. I see their reasoned arguments in the newspapers far more than Richard Dawkins'.

You know that other one that I'm not even going to mention in public? that was an internal fuckup by the NSS. Every group of humans has this sort of stuff happen. It's what we do.

I'm not going into details, because it's NOT in our interests collectively to rake over this stuff, which is kinda the point I am making about the current situation.

The thing which needs to be remembered here is that prior to RDF, atheism and secularism were not exactly awash with public figureheads. You don't think Richard Dawkins makes a good front man for a campaign because of this forum situation? Frankly that's on the same level as saying someone shouldn't be Prime Minister because they smoked some weed in college.

The 'four horsemen' have given atheist campaigning a real shot in the arm. don't throw it away because of a relatively minor thing.

[I'm With Stupid]

The thing which needs to be remembered here is that prior to RDF, atheism and secularism were not exactly awash with public figureheads. You don't think Richard Dawkins makes a good front man for a campaign because of this forum situation? Frankly that's on the same level as saying someone shouldn't be Prime Minister because they smoked some weed in college.

No no, I'm saying that I'm questioning his motivation because of his reaction to the forum situation. There is a massive difference. Cock ups happen. Going to huge efforts to cover them up, denying they ever happened, and then demonizing anyone who provides evidence that they did, is quite another matter. Making stupid decisions when it's been proven that you made absolutely no effort to include those best-placed to give their opinions is quite another matter. Would the fact that the Labour party want cannabis to be a class B drug rather than a class C drug influence your decision to vote for them? Of course not. It's such a minor issue. Would the fact that they ignored the advice of experts, and then sacked said experts when they pointed out that their advice was being ignored affect your decision to vote for them? It certainly would mine.

[TheoJones]

ahhhh, fair point mate. I see what you mean, and the labour/cannabis analogy is a good one.

I did bristle a bit at RD's "outrage" post, and I think the thing that rankled was that he seems to have been taken in by Timonen's version of events..

I guess it's the beauty of being an atheist though - we don't claim that our spokespeople and leaders are infallible, just human.

[95Theses]

I care, and I'm going to keep this going as long as I can.

Richard stresses that if there are two sides to an argument, then look at the evidence, don't just believe what you are told. In this case We have the evidence, and all he has is blind assertions based on fallacies, mis representations and quote mines. I intend to hold him to his own standards wherever possible.

We have evidence that the thread on RDF discussing this wasn't the hate filled vitriol he claims it was
We have evidence that the thread was deleted and wiped from the logs
We have evidence that PM's were turned off to stop us exchaning information
We have evidence that his admins vandalised thousands of science posts, and ruined the science writing competition out of sheer spite
We have evidence that he has quote mined and mis represented us as nothing more than a bunch of thugs

It is getting to the point now where I am reminded of the Wendy Wright interview, only Richard is behaving like Wendy Wright, refusing to even acknowledge the evidence we are waving in front of his face that he and/or his staff are wrong. His behaviour is more becoming someone from AiG than I ever expected, covering up the truth, blindly making assertions with no evidence, painting anyone who doesn't agree with you as a mindless thug.

Yesterday I was perhaps beginning to worry that this was blowing up too far, but we have to remember Richard is just an atheist, if we want to think we are better the blind ideological stormtroopers for doctrine (TM Cali) then we have to hold our own to the same standards we hold them.

He's wrong in this case, he's totally mis representing the truth in order to try and force his own made up version of reality down people's throat, and I'm not going to stand for it.

[Skylarking]

Here, the fuck, here, 95!

[95Theses]

I'm increasingly of the view that we do our cause more harm by shutting up about a travest of justice for the 'greater good' than we do by standing up and arguing for what is right, every single time even if it is not politically expedient to our cause.

Blindly shutting up for the greater good is what the catholics did in Ireland. (and no, I'm not saying what Richard and/or You have been up to is akin to child abuse Mr Timonen before you hop on over and quote mine this too)

And Skylarking - Thanks

[TheoJones]

I'm increasingly of the view that we do our cause more harm by shutting up about a travest of justice for the 'greater good' than we do by standing up and arguing for what is right, every single time even if it is not politically expedient to our cause.

A travesty of justice??

Seriously, this is getting out of hand. Do you understand there are people all over this world living in abject misery and poverty? countless people are living under regimes where they have no freedom of speech, and will be imprisoned or killed for speaking their mind?

Can't you understand how utterly unimportant the Ridhard Dawkins forums are???

Kenny Richey spent 21 years on death row for a murder he did not commit, which has completely ruined his life, leaving him with mental health issues and suicidal.

THAT is a travesty of justice.

THIS is an internet forum.

Blindly shutting up for the greater good is what the catholics did in Ireland.

OH MY GOD. you did NOT just say that.

DAWKINS CLOSED A FORUM.

PRIESTS RAPED CHILDREN.

Have you lost ALL sense of perspective?

(and no, I'm not saying what Richard and/or You have been up to is akin to child abuse Mr Timonen before you hop on over and quote mine this too) And Skylarking - Thanks

Yes YOU ARE, you showboating drama queen.

EDIT : and now I see that you seem to be talking to Josh Timonen, not me.


Yeah, he's reading every single post you make, everywhere, on every forum, just to keep tabs on you.


"I'm not saying that...."

Well DON'T SAY it then. The whole "I'm not saying that..." schitck is pathetic.

If the sort of paranoid, accusatory junk you have posted here is representative of how things were going on the RDF Forums, I can see why Richard Dawkins would be desperate to make sure it was not associated with his name.

Seriously, wow.

You need to SERIOUSLY get your sense of what's important in life sorted out.