Announcement about RDF Part 3.

[Samuel]

Communities are never "just forums", so I also hope that Rationalia regulars won't feel that their forum is changing for the worse. I'd still like to share some thoughts about the RDF forum incident in a mild manner, if I may.

Reading The God Delusion in 2006 was a kind of a turning point in my life. I'm from a christian home, but had been agnostic for more than 15 years before that, but only after reading TGD I realized the it's ok to say that there is (almost certainly) no god or gods. I also have kids, and decided that if possible, I'll keep religion out of their life, though obviously we teach them about religions, and about mutual respect for humans et cetera. I watched the Dawkins' documentary "The root of all evil", and loved it. I found out that there were hordes of atheists "out there", on Youtube, on different forums, all over the Internet. Before that I had also thought, as Richard says her daughter thought, "that atheism was not an option". That I can't be right because I'm in such a small minority, that there is something I don't "get".

Richard Dawkins changed all that for me. I've never felt more free and stable as I do now, thought as a side effect I now must face the reality about how delusional many people are.

So reading Richards respond to this incident at http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtop ... 0&t=110356 made me sad. Kind of like you telling your parents about a new found passion in your life, and then they dismiss it as just ... well, nothing. Words like "Surely there has to be something wrong with people who can resort to such over-the-top language, over-reacting so spectacularly to something so trivial." and "How can anybody feel that strongly about something so small?" from Richard really made me sad, not angry. Richard disappointed me. He was just another human, after all.

A community of tens of thousands of people and over 2 million posts was nothing to him. In many ways, it was him who united us, but still he couldn't see the grandeur in that.

"How can anybody feel that strongly about something so small?"

I'm sad, Richard (I know he is not reading these, but humor me). You didn't get it that this wasn't a rhetorical question, so it seems that you never gave it a second thought...

[Alan C]

:Eh... did we ruin Rationalia for everyone else?

I'm really very sorry!

Aye, it wouldn't be fair [thinking of the golden rule].

[hackenslash]

ISend it to me. You have my contact deets, don't you? I'll seed a torrent.

Done. It's in my bittorrent folder as well.

S.

I'm not sure that's the whole thread.

[ozewiezeloose]

ISend it to me. You have my contact deets, don't you? I'll seed a torrent.

Done. It's in my bittorrent folder as well.

S.

I'm not sure that's the whole thread.

Don't know. It does look like it's the thread after a number of posts got deleted. It's all I have, unfortunately.

[hackenslash]

No worries. Maybe it can be recovered from google cache. I'll check it out. There were a cou-ple of posts that I particularly wanted to make sure I got before a prepare a mega blog entry about the events of the last few days. There was one post in which I counselled calm, just before the thread was closed, but it doesn't seem to be there. I'll work it out somehow.

[z8000783]

Reading Richard Dawkins statement on the RDF forum reminded me of the clichéd and often misquoted line from Hamlet - The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

The telling phrase for me from this is one “Surely there has to be something wrong with people who can resort to such over-the-top language, over-reacting so spectacularly to something so trivial.”

I have a question Richard, what people specifically and how many?

In that statement alone he shows a complete lack of understanding for the work put in on his behalf by many loyal and dedicated Moderators. Now he may well argue that they were all volunteers who he never asked to sign up to his cause and therefore accepts no responsibility what may occur as a result of his actions. I would say that is ignorance in the extreme. One of the key points of Human evolution for me is the fact that we are able to rise above our genes and our instincts and frame our behaviours in a civilised way albeit relating to events which don’t turn out as we expect.

Let’s try and dispel some of that ignorance. In what seems to have escalated into an embarrassing episode for him he appears to have accepted the gift that has been given to him by a number of members of the RDF forum as Julie quite correctly pointed out, who have resorted to levelling abuse at Josh Timonen, some of which he has quoted in this statement. Now there is no doubt that Richard Dawkins is one of the most intelligent people on the planet, and whilst he may be upset at the lambasting of his colleague, friend and recipient of the dedication of his latest book, I am also sure he has taken this opportunity to erect a smoke screen around what so many have already pointed out as the real issue surrounding this matter, the shameful treatment of the moderators of the RDF forum, in order to justify a decision that needs no justification and which had it been managed differently could have led to a seamless and positive transition carried out by many willing helpers.

Whether you like forums or not they can be productive places if moderated well and that takes skill, experience and many hours of work, something that is hardly recognised outside of those circles not to mention the Internet itself. Josh Timonen, on the other hand, is a young and skilled technician it seems, who has not been involved in moderating a large and very lively forum before. On Monday he found himself wearing the Captain’s hat and then proceeded to steer the ship straight onto the rocks. To be honest I think he is simply no more than a very naïve young man who quickly found himself out of his depth and who may or may not have learned something from this episode. However judging by the handling of a previous episode on the forum, my guess is learning in this context is not high on his agenda.

One of the highlights of this sad affair for me is Peter Harrison's Blog which ironically, stands out as an oasis of clear-thinking. I am sure Richard has read it but has probably dismissed it as irrelevant.

Another group that has come out well are the Moderators themselves and I think it is shameful that their massive contribution has been so frivolously dismissed by Richard. He knows I am sure, that they were not responsible for the comments he cites. It could well be that the forum did not head in the direction he required and yes, maybe it is time for a change but that is not the point as many have indicted in various ways. It is they who have be insulted by his silence as much as Josh has by vitriol.

Whether unwanted or not he has found himself in charge of an organisation going through change. An organisation made up of people. As many company’s and CEO’s have found to their cost, managing that change can be rewarding and productive or ghastly and horrible. Ironically the managers who come out feeling good are the one who do it successfully together with those who simply don’t care about people.

Richard has repeatedly said it is not a slur to be ignorant and points out that he is ignorant of many things. What is less acceptable to remain so when one has the opportunity do something about it.

John

[hackenslash]

Whoah! Déja vu! I just got through readig that at Pharyngula.

Good post, though.

[JimC]

Wow. Things moves quix in cybernetz, don't they. I'm loving being branded an undesirable & the reason the Josh torched the RDF forums in what I can only describe as some of the most incredible confabulation I've ever read. Quote mine much Josh (oh, I still reckon you're ugly & your mum dresses you funny ).

Anyway, just to prove I'm not the crack-pot that two hot-headed posts have me branded as, I'd like to recind something of what I have written here at Rationalia.

Specifically I am refering to my suggestion of a silent protest when Richard takes the stage.

I reflected on this some in the past 24 hours & realise (yes, I can be slow on the uptake sometimes, I know) that the only people this would hurt are the amazing, hard-working people who've put together the Rise of Atheism Convention. People similar in dedication, intent & passion to those who were the Mod team at RDF. I have no desire to belittle the efforts of these fine folk, or put any of their hard work in jeopardy. Out of respect for these folk I realise that the Convention is not the place to air such greivances & I certainly will not be. I also hope that anybody else thinking along similar lines to my original suggestion is able to put that aside for some good people. After all this will be an amazing event & RD is but a single speaker on an extremely talented line-up over that weekend.

So, crying in our beer it will be. My head is well and truly pulled in.

A perfect example of reflection and re-evaluation, which we all need to do at times, but often do not. Initially, I felt, in the heat of the moment, that your original idea had some merit, but after a while, came to the same conclusion as you...

(of course, I will cry in my G & T)

Looking forward to seeing you there!

(and tell AA to get her arse over here, and at least give me a PM. We used to talk occasionally by PM on RDF, before the Fall...)

[heyjude]

So reading Richards respond to this incident at http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtop ... 0&t=110356 made me sad. Kind of like you telling your parents about a new found passion in your life, and then they dismiss it as just ... well, nothing. Words like "Surely there has to be something wrong with people who can resort to such over-the-top language, over-reacting so spectacularly to something so trivial." and "How can anybody feel that strongly about something so small?" from Richard really made me sad, not angry. Richard disappointed me. He was just another human, after all.

Your comments are really good Samuel. I bet so so many people on rd.net went through the same thing, and that is why Richard Dawkins was really important for so many people. Perhaps we shouldn't expect so much from him - he's going to screw up and disappoint us just like anyone. He's still an exceptional scientist and he has the balls to use his science to take on the fundies and shout the idea of atheism loud and clear. The fact the he made some pretty inexplicable decisions over this, and lacked empathy and understanding towards a large number of his closest admirers is all part of it. We don't actually know him - what he's like. We just know what we expect from what he's said and written - but people are people, and that means often unpredictable. We don't know what went on behind the scenes there, and he doesn't know what went on behind the scenes here... so.... on it goes. And the Richard Dawkins myth just becomes another guy.....

Weirdly... I just happened to have finally bought The God Delusion on Sunday.. to *finally* read it! I feel a little odd now. I guess I will one day. I was always an atheist though... but I wanted to know what was in it. It just seems ironic.

[Agrippina]

Communities are never "just forums", so I also hope that Rationalia regulars won't feel that their forum is changing for the worse. I'd still like to share some thoughts about the RDF forum incident in a mild manner, if I may.



"How can anybody feel that strongly about something so small?"

I'm sad, Richard (I know he is not reading these, but humor me). You didn't get it that this wasn't a rhetorical question, so it seems that you never gave it a second thought...

I understand what you're saying. I've run a small forum for some very close friends for a couple of years now. We are also 'not just a forum' it's like a meeting place for those of us who were there at the beginning and who were refugees from other forums. People came and went but the core people are still there and rather than just shutting it down, I made it private for just the few of us after a couple of people, and one particularly nasty person, made a concerted effort to split us up and to close it down.

I'm really impressed that the regular members here allowed us to regroup in order to lick wounds or help with bandages etc. I wasn't hurt so much about the closure because I didn't really have much of an investment in RDF, it was just enjoyable reading all the very interesting threads there and learning from all the very clever people. As for your point, it is very real, for the people who did have an investment, it was a very big deal, and I'm really surprised, more than about anything else that RD hasn't recognised that.

[fredbear]

well said john.
we may all be feeling unfairly chastened by rd's damning words and the natural wish of some for the hurt experience to no more affect the tone and timbre of our posting.but the truth is richard dawkins has been tarnished by hubris. his willful ignorance of the situation and attempt to whitewash it with an attack on our response will not be easily forgotten even if we collectively chose to move on. yet a few hundred of us matter to him not a jot. we are collateral damage to a greater cause. he is just a man, one who guards his reputation not just for the greater cause but seemingly to preserve a fragile ego. i agree that his treatment of the moderation team has been woeful.but realistically there is little that can be achieved by repeating this over and over. i have lost respect for him as an individual and i feel better not being a member of his forum. i never felt comfortable by being seen as part of his fan club anyway. i was not brought to the forum by his reputation. i came here for advice from an atheist community. if that community remains here i will be delighted to stay, if that's ok with the original team. thank you rationalia for inviting us (if you did?) and dealing with us all.

[Agrippina]

well said john.
we may all be feeling unfairly chastened by rd's damning words and the natural wish of some for the hurt experience to no more affect the tone and timbre of our posting.but the truth is richard dawkins has been tarnished by hubris. his willful ignorance of the situation and attempt to whitewash it with an attack on our response will not be easily forgotten even if we collectively chose to move on. yet a few hundred of us matter to him not a jot. we are collateral damage to a greater cause. he is just a man, one who guards his reputation not just for the greater cause but seemingly to preserve a fragile ego. i agree that his treatment of the moderation team has been woeful.but realistically there is little that can be achieved by repeating this over and over. i have lost respect for him as an individual and i feel better not being a member of his forum. i never felt comfortable by being seen as part of his fan club anyway. i was not brought to the forum by his reputation. i came here for advice from an atheist community. if that community remains here i will be delighted to stay, if that's ok with the original team. thank you rationalia for inviting us (if you did?) and dealing with us all.

+1

[GeneticJen]

The blog has taken in well over 10000 views now, so it continues to be the best place to post new information regarding this incredible mess. With that in mind, share this if you like: http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.co ... m-closure/

You'll notice I'm not agreeing with many of you, and still see Richard as a victim, although I admit that it's not impossible that he may be behind it all. The point of the entry is to make people realise that discussing the system change isn't the big issue. It's the tactics that need to be highlighted.

[GeneticJen]

The searches finding my blog are all focusing on this now. All the "reptilian aliens", "thorny devil gestation", "aliens with thermonuclear weapons" and "will homeopathy help my penis?" searches are falling down to the bottom, and being replaced by ones like these:

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Just sharing as a matter of interest. Good to know people are searching for answers and information.

[virphen]

The searches finding my blog are all focusing on this now. All the "reptilian aliens",

Fucking cyberstalkers, why won't they leave me alone!