First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

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Teshi
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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by Teshi » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:33 pm

One thing I've noticed about some people who do not "live" on the internet very much is that they do not understand the type of community that the internet fosters. They see any negativity or resistance as evidence of there being something rotten on the internet. Dawkins' use of this kind of language is not the first time I have seen it.

Dawkins:
Be that as it may, what this remarkable bile suggests to me is that there is something rotten in the Internet culture that can vent it. If I ever had any doubts that RD.net needs to change, and rid itself of this particular aspect of Internet culture, they are dispelled by this episode.
over-reacting so spectacularly to something so trivial.
I think there is a tendency to underestimate the strength of communities and relationships on the internet. "It's just a message board" "it's just a chatroom" are exceedingly ignorant comments (or implied comments) that demonstrate how little experience the speaker has of being part of an internet community. Internet communities are a type of community that simply doesn't exist for the vast majority people in real life, often bringing together people who cannot find each other in real life. What modern situation is comparable? People don't gather the way they used to. Essentially, the vast majority of productive internet forums (of which the RDF Forums were a shining example) are social discussion societies. They remind me of a kind of 19th century gathering of intellectuals. People meet every day in the same coffee shop and discuss. Sometimes, those discussions are intensely academic, other times their personal lives sneak in-- as must inevitably happen as people get to know each other.

There is some regulation and organization by some leaders, but it runs primarily because people want to show up. They may get into fierce arguments with people they dislike, but they come back because it's fundamentally a safe place. Over the years they are active, the society that maybe was started by one person, now exists as its own entity. The founding individual may not even attend the meetings very frequently any more.

This is what the best internet forums are. They are not groups of crazy people who have no lives, they are profound expressions of productive human discussion. They represent a kind of deep productive social discussion that does not happen in our society very often any more. Perhaps it should, but it does not.

I wasn't a member of the RDF forums for very long (less than a month), so I cannot presume to be part of that particular profound society. But I am and have been part of other forums. I know what it must feel like and how all the members who belonged to the community must feel. You have my condolences.

What happened at the RDF Forums is the real life equivalent of the founder of the 19th century coffee shop society's clerk (whom nobody in the society has ever really met) coming back suddenly and announcing that the society is over. Not only can it not meet in its habitual place any more, it can never meet again in the same form. The founder is coming back and discussions will now be lead by him only. Everyone will now speak their turn and personal discussions between the people who have now become friends will be banned. "It's just a society," the founder says.

It is not only a matter of "has the right to do this". Most people I think agree that it is RDF's forum. It is simply inhuman to expect that people would not be upset and would not express their anger in a meaningful way. To express shock that they would shows a strange lack of understanding of people.

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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by rachelbean » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:34 pm

PZ,

I think that most people were sad, but understanding, concerning the upcoming changes. I never though Dawkins owed me anything and believed he could do whatever he wanted with his boards. I think the main point of people here (the one RD completely missed) was that the way those changes were handled completely changed the situation. The thread that contained all of our replies was deleted and probably will never be seen.

I think that if what was said in the original announcement had been done we would have still had drama, but very little. There would have been a thread or two started called "Where are you going?" and "How do we keep in touch?" and there people would have linked here and other communities and over the next 30 days we would have all joined and found each other again. 30 days would even have been more than enough time to create a exrdf board where we could stick to off-topic fare as well as catalog and post all the great writings by old members. We also would have stayed at RD.net and hoped that the debate in the religious and scientific boards would continue (but most of us expressed concern if that would be possible). In the end the membership there may have fizzled out, and we'd all find out ourselves in new homes and move on with our lives.

Because of the deletions, the locking of profiles, removing sigs that gave directions and contact info, etc most people went from being disappointed, to being really pissed off. It would have been very easy to even lock the boards, freeze offenders accounts, etc without causing any of the problems that Josh/Andrew did. It was handled the worst way possible and people have a right to be upset without being insulted as childish or the worst of the internet :nono:
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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by Skinny Puppy » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:37 pm

Now it’s got me to wondering… after that kind and gracious apology from Ricky-boy, is anyone here still planning on going back to RDNet? :ask:

If you are, I’ll selling condoms because I don’t want any of the valued members here getting fucked up the ass by Josh and his masterbator Dicky without adequate protection. :food:

The condoms are $1 each, but if you’ve previously been fucked by Josh, then you can have them at ½ price. :smooch:
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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by David M » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:38 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Apparently, there is some reference to moderators and users posting and/or PM'ing stuff before the site was shut down that were not appropriate. I don't know what those things were. I thought Dawkins was mentioning some examples in his post, but if I'm wrong on that then I stand corrected.
The only possible thing that was not appropriate was reposting the message fromn Josh to the moderators (from the staff forum I believe) in public. This was not a personal communication as has been claimed but a policy statement on the new "forum" and certain instructions to staff from the admins.

Someone managed to screencap the dissension thread and it was not vituperative or over the top and certainly the mods were not in any way insulting.
Last edited by David M on Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by j.mills » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:39 pm

What Teshi said.

Also, as regards the number of posts per day or whatever, whilst a lot of it was froth, you would also see serious discussions, long posts full of research, and so forth. You don't really get that on comment threads such as PZ's, simply because it's an inappropriate format. Quality, not just quantity. And then there's the Calibre of minds that were composing those posts...
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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by paceetrate » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:40 pm

David M wrote: Someone managed to screencap the dissension thread
Does anybody have a link to that?

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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by 210karman » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:42 pm

When people get stabbed in the back they react badly. Human nature has more problem dealing with a betrayal of trust than almost anything else I can think of. It's not acceptable to drop people like a sack of shit and then claim the resulting mess is the fault of the shit.

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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by cowiz » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:44 pm

I think our beloved Professor has his cause and effect mixed up a tad.
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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by klr » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:44 pm

Skinny Puppy wrote:Now it’s got me to wondering… after that kind and gracious apology from Ricky-boy, is anyone here still planning on going back to RDNet? :ask:

If you are, I’ll selling condoms because I don’t want any of the valued members here getting fucked up the ass by Josh and his masterbator Dicky without adequate protection. :food:

The condoms are $1 each, but if you’ve previously been fucked by Josh, then you can have them at ½ price. :smooch:
After what effectively amounts to a denial of reality, and a collective slur? Rather unlikely I would say. The fact that it might be misled and unwitting doesn't make things any better. All it will prove to many that RD is still being "boxed-in" by Josh.

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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by Skinny Puppy » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:48 pm

Has anyone else noticed this (if this has been mentioned already, sorry).

Statistics Feb 24-2010
Total posts 2271827 • Total topics 85842 • Total members 84680 • Our newest member dimmer


Each time I go there I see a NEW member added, yet when you go to the new member thread, it’s unchanged and the forum is read only. :ask:

Is Josh fucking with that stat to make it look as if people are still joining?

I just captured the one above earlier, I’ll keep checking it now to see if (which I believe) it keeps changing and increasing.

Incidentally, they won’t dump us en-mass. Having a bogus membership in excess of 80,000 looks good for them. It’s a pile of horseshit of course because many have left for good.

The fact that it’s dishonest shouldn’t bother Richard, he’s a dishonest, lying prick, so those BS figures shouldn’t bother him in the least.
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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by David M » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:49 pm

virphen wrote:
pzmyers wrote: I'm just saying that focusing on one forum and one style of communication is a big mistake. Internet forums regularly implode into shouting cliques like this, get used to it. It's part of the ecosystem.
PZ, please try and understand where we're coming from. It isn't about the forum, it's about people, and how those people were treated. In particular people who donated thousands of hours of their time to help out the RDF and try and support its goals. Those people really were treated like they were something you tread in on a farm.
Even worse than that the regular members, and by that I mean every single one of them, have been silenced. None of us can ask about the new forum's functionality, none of us can send more than about 1 PM a day to our friends.

An important issue that we cannot even discuss is how the new forum will cope with the aspect of supporting isolated atheists when it seems from the information given that there will be no thread creation but comments only on pre-approved articles.

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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by Millefleur » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:50 pm

I'm hurting :(


Richard, :disappoint:
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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by klr » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:51 pm

Skinny Puppy wrote:Has anyone else noticed this (if this has been mentioned already, sorry).

Statistics Feb 24-2010
Total posts 2271827 • Total topics 85842 • Total members 84680 • Our newest member dimmer


Each time I go there I see a NEW member added, yet when you go to the new member thread, it’s unchanged and the forum is read only. :ask:

Is Josh fucking with that stat to make it look as if people are still joining?

I just captured the one above earlier, I’ll keep checking it now to see if (which I believe) it keeps changing and increasing.

Incidentally, they won’t dump us en-mass. Having a bogus membership in excess of 80,000 looks good for them. It’s a pile of horseshit of course because many have left for good.

The fact that it’s dishonest shouldn’t bother Richard, he’s a dishonest, lying prick, so those BS figures shouldn’t bother him in the least.
People still need to register to post on the front page. Of course, some may indeed be registering with the specific intention of posting on the forum, and there is nothing sufficiently "up front" to tell them otherwise.
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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by Skinny Puppy » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:52 pm

klr wrote:
Skinny Puppy wrote:Has anyone else noticed this (if this has been mentioned already, sorry).

Statistics Feb 24-2010
Total posts 2271827 • Total topics 85842 • Total members 84680 • Our newest member dimmer


Each time I go there I see a NEW member added, yet when you go to the new member thread, it’s unchanged and the forum is read only. :ask:

Is Josh fucking with that stat to make it look as if people are still joining?

I just captured the one above earlier, I’ll keep checking it now to see if (which I believe) it keeps changing and increasing.

Incidentally, they won’t dump us en-mass. Having a bogus membership in excess of 80,000 looks good for them. It’s a pile of horseshit of course because many have left for good.

The fact that it’s dishonest shouldn’t bother Richard, he’s a dishonest, lying prick, so those BS figures shouldn’t bother him in the least.
People still need to register to post on the front page. Of course, some may indeed be registering with the specific intention of posting on the forum, and there is nothing sufficiently "up front" to tell them otherwise.

okay, thanks. I didn't know that. :td:
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Re: First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

Post by I'm With Stupid » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:54 pm

Maybe Richard now has the answer as to why otherwise rational people can look at the overwhelming evidence on a particular issue and completely dismiss it in favour of their own preconceptions. Ulterior motives, personal relationships, public image and sheer pig-headedness it looks like from here.
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