First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

[Nora_Leonard]

The pathetic thing is it focusses on the absolute worst of the reaction, while completely ignoring all the perfectly calm, rational expressions of frustration and concern made by hundreds of people.

You know what - this has to be said, RD has been picking the juicy bits from whatever religion or foe he takes on, surely to god you didn't think a different approach would be taken over this? Has anyone seriously thought that the emails of vitriol was all he ever got from believers? Didn't you see his response to liberal christians after a nut job fundy spouted drivel re Haiti? The real irony is his accusation of ludicrously hyperbolic animosity, something, on occasion levelled at his approach to theism.

Anyway - for those who the above seriously offends, go for it - I would have gone pop if I didn't say it eventually.

Actually, I've already said this. So I totally agree with you. Like I said, why are we surprised?

[eXcommunicate]

The pathetic thing is it focusses on the absolute worst of the reaction, while completely ignoring all the perfectly calm, rational expressions of frustration and concern made by hundreds of people.

You know what - this has to be said, RD has been picking the juicy bits from whatever religion or foe he takes on, surely to god you didn't think a different approach would be taken over this? Has anyone seriously thought that the emails of vitriol was all he ever got from believers? Didn't you see his response to liberal christians after a nut job fundy spouted drivel re Haiti? The real irony is his accusation of ludicrously hyperbolic animosity, something, on occasion levelled at his approach to theism.

Anyway - for those who the above seriously offends, go for it - I would have gone pop if I didn't say it eventually.

I actually did not agree with Dawkins' blog you reference here. I found it callow and without redeeming content. I even said so at the time (just in case you think I'm jumping on the Dawkins hate wagon). His characterization of liberal Christians did not match what I had experienced of liberal Christians (my last girlfriend was a liberal Christian and did not fit Dawkins' narrow view).

Of course though, Dawkins' main concern is reason, while mine is Progressivism (with reason).

[Bella Fortuna]

I stand corrected. I am now a star by association!

At the time I remember I said I needed to get a photo to take back to my friends, and you looked at me with a look of awe and said, "Who ARE you??" Oh I felt so important and mysterious.

[I'm With Stupid]

By the way, PZ. I want to thank you very deeply for responding on these forums. I still think you misunderstand that people are upset about things that Josh did, not about upcomming forum changes, but it's wonderful to have you here replying to this anyways. Thanks again for replying, because for a while there it was rather surreal about how Josh could do these things (deleting posts, preventing communication, rick rolling, etc) with noone other than the dawkins.net community noticing.

Indeed. At least you're actually making the effort to understand our grievances PZ, which is more than can be said for the people who actually caused them and have the power to put them right (actions which wouldn't include abandoning all plans for change, as Richard Dawkins attempted to claim). Hell, even reopening the personal message function on the website for the next 27 days would be something.

[I'm With Stupid]

People seem to be operating under a weird misapprehension that Richard Dawkins is an absentee landlord who only hears about what is going on in the forums when he gets reports from his brutal overseer, Black Josh. It's not true -- he is pretty savvy about this internet stuff, and can actually follow what you wild and crazy forum denizens say. And what he has been seeing is not pretty. Just look at this thread and the kinds of abuse people are heaping on Josh Timonen! I guarantee you that he is not browsing the forum here, or was browsing the RDF forums, and thinking, "Gee, these are exactly the kinds of people and comments I aim to encourage". I'd guess he's feeling glad to be rid of some of the riff-raff.

And at the same time, the RDF has lost some good people whose input has been and would be valuable. If those people weren't all baying at Josh in the current witchhunt, that is.

I speak from past experience with forum drama. Take some time and cool off. It's not that important. The people you're blaming really aren't out to hurt you (honestly, Josh is a good guy, his job is simply much larger than shepherding a forum, and those who hate him have really lost perspective), and if you show a little patience and tolerance, you might even be able to get them to help you out with some of your reasonable requests. I'm sure they actually like and respect many of the contributors and the general importance of the social aspect of the forums, but are reasonably concerned about the rather more vicious minority. What I see here doesn't help. There are some people here they would rather not see coming back to the RD forums. Can you guess why?

It's not because they're nasty vengeful control freaks, either. It might have more to do with the fact that they're human beings.

This description of Josh does not match my own experience with him, which I won't belabor here. Just keep in mind that Josh may present an image to celebrities like you and RD that is different than the way he treats people "below him." This is called Kiss Up - Kick Down Syndrome.

I agree with you. As an ex trade union official I have represented workers who have been bullied at work. The bully is such a nice chap to those who have power over them but to the lower orders they can be a tyrant. Maybe PZ should do some research into bulling at work.

He could ask Gordon Brown about it.

[Bella Fortuna]

By the way, PZ. I want to thank you very deeply for responding on these forums. I still think you misunderstand that people are upset about things that Josh did, not about upcomming forum changes, but it's wonderful to have you here replying to this anyways. Thanks again for replying, because for a while there it was rather surreal about how Josh could do these things (deleting posts, preventing communication, rick rolling, etc) with noone other than the dawkins.net community noticing.

Indeed. At least you're actually making the effort to understand our grievances PZ, which is more than can be said for the people who actually caused them and have the power to put them right (actions which wouldn't include abandoning all plans for change, as Richard Dawkins attempted to claim). Hell, even reopening the personal message function on the website for the next 27 days would be something.

Ramen to all this - many thanks to PZ for delving a bit further.

[cowiz]

By the way, PZ. I want to thank you very deeply for responding on these forums. I still think you misunderstand that people are upset about things that Josh did, not about upcomming forum changes, but it's wonderful to have you here replying to this anyways. Thanks again for replying, because for a while there it was rather surreal about how Josh could do these things (deleting posts, preventing communication, rick rolling, etc) with noone other than the dawkins.net community noticing.

Indeed. At least you're actually making the effort to understand our grievances PZ, which is more than can be said for the people who actually caused them and have the power to put them right (actions which wouldn't include abandoning all plans for change, as Richard Dawkins attempted to claim). Hell, even reopening the personal message function on the website for the next 27 days would be something.

Ramen to all this - many thanks to PZ for delving a bit further.

Maybe now he will accept my Facebook friend request - after sending it weeks and weeks ago

[Bella Fortuna]

By the way, PZ. I want to thank you very deeply for responding on these forums. I still think you misunderstand that people are upset about things that Josh did, not about upcomming forum changes, but it's wonderful to have you here replying to this anyways. Thanks again for replying, because for a while there it was rather surreal about how Josh could do these things (deleting posts, preventing communication, rick rolling, etc) with noone other than the dawkins.net community noticing.

Indeed. At least you're actually making the effort to understand our grievances PZ, which is more than can be said for the people who actually caused them and have the power to put them right (actions which wouldn't include abandoning all plans for change, as Richard Dawkins attempted to claim). Hell, even reopening the personal message function on the website for the next 27 days would be something.

Ramen to all this - many thanks to PZ for delving a bit further.

Maybe now he will accept my Facebook friend request - after sending it weeks and weeks ago

Seriously, PZ. You don't want this guy. He's a FB slut.

[Harmonica]

By the way, PZ. I want to thank you very deeply for responding on these forums. I still think you misunderstand that people are upset about things that Josh did, not about upcomming forum changes, but it's wonderful to have you here replying to this anyways. Thanks again for replying, because for a while there it was rather surreal about how Josh could do these things (deleting posts, preventing communication, rick rolling, etc) with noone other than the dawkins.net community noticing.

Indeed. At least you're actually making the effort to understand our grievances PZ, which is more than can be said for the people who actually caused them and have the power to put them right (actions which wouldn't include abandoning all plans for change, as Richard Dawkins attempted to claim). Hell, even reopening the personal message function on the website for the next 27 days would be something.

I agree. But damn u old man for making me feel stupid for having to look up an internet abbreviation

[Mazille]

Thank you, Hugh for putting it into words: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010 ... nt-2299911

Just to get one thing clear....

This is the order in which events happened at RDF (I was there for the whole thing);

- Notification given to all members that RDF Forum was to close in 30 days, new "Discussion Board" would be highly regulated, new threads had to be pre-approved, any "chit-chit" posts which were deemed not valuable would be deleted. Members told not to try to migrate to another forum or promote alternatives. Users told to back up any posts they needed before it was all going to be deleted (despite the forum search function being down for months)

- Thread started by members to voice outcry, this was within Forum rules. Tensions were high but this was disillusionment rather than hostility.

- Mods tell members that they had no hand in any of this (as the masses were getting restless) and provide the pm they received to show that they were as in the dark, and more importantly completely disrespected, as the rest of us. They were essentially told "we don't need you anymore, don't let the door hit you on the way out"

- Josh rides in on his white horse, shuts down the entire website, deletes all dissent from the Forum and any (within Forum rules) criticism. Communication between members was cut, many of whom were unaware as to events or didn't know how to contact each other. Now users couldn't even track their own posts as they were shut out, now way to search any posts at all, by any means other than dicing through the whole forum.

- Josh deletes the mod Mazille and member CJ for their part in the criticism (Mazille for posting the pm and CJ for criticizing the treatment of mods on the RDF front page). nearly 20,000 posts lost by these two alone who were both high profile, high quality content posters.

- Members started to find each other on another website and slowly getting the word out to those who were wondering WTF was going on, while simultaneously furiously trying to back-up the Forum so that the couple of million strong user posts that were used as an educational database of hard science and wonderful creative ideas and knowledge.

- Josh continues to delete posts and prevents users from changing their profiles to indicate to others where we had all gone, mass censorship was underway. Even the logs of Josh's activities were deleted and recycle bins emptied so no trace of these could ever be recovered.

- Tensions mount on alternate forum where many RDF-ers gather, the dispicable behaviour by Josh and disrespect to the moderation team and members is voiced (and yes we did use some f-ing crude language)

- Finally Dawkins speaks out after numerous pleas from site staff (or should I say ex-staff) and members alike to stop the madness. This was met with essesntially the statement "My Joshie's a lovely boy and you've all been very mean to him, you should be ashamed, I'm glad I kicked you all to the curb now"

- New developments pending

On a personal note I would like to say I'm absolutely appauled at the mistreatment of RD's loyal fans by both Josh, and himself.

Tell me Richard, will the money saved in ditching the Forum be worth the losses incurred by s#$tting all over your biggest contributors?

What 85,000 ex-members x $0 ?

For a full detail of what happened read Peter Harrison's blog on the matter (Google it).

Thank you,
HughMcB

[Matt H]

I had conflicting thoughts about PZ in the past, liking him as an individual, as a scientist and an atheist, but not thinking much of his politics. But wow, he really came through for us here. I think he showed a lot of kindness in coming here and trying to understand our position. That's a hell of a lot more than Richard did for us. Thanks PZ for speaking to us and for putting us on your blog, that's all we needed. We needed our voices heard, because they certainly weren't being heard on RichardDawkins.net.

Anyway, pending further announcements from the RDF, I think this will be my last post on the matter. I've ranted and moaned enough about this already, I'm sick of reading my own posts. Time to move on.

[Heresiarch]

Ramen to all this - many thanks to PZ for delving a bit further.

+1

[klr]

Ahem. Can we get back on track please?

PZ: I too would like to thank you for taking the time out to come here in person. You've read Richard Dawkins' statement. You know that it refers to something that was said here on this forum - long after the RD.net forum was locked down, post histories removed, private messaging severely restricted, signatures blocked, and so on. Yet anyone reading it "cold" would form the impression that the offending comment and others of a similar tenor were made back at RD.net, and in immediate reaction to the initial announcement on Monday evening. Now, I can't speak for what some people may have said via PM or email, but I'm not aware of such comments being made on the RD.net forum itself. Indeed, the entire response thread was deleted, so we may never know.

[Rum]

We are all wrong and one person is right.


..it seems.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

Damn you PZ for making me feel a little less angry!

That makes me so angr.. ...oh, wait..