Announcement about RDF

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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by JimC » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:52 am

Ameri Boi wrote:I'm still waiting on confirmation that RD knew of what was happening. Despite the fact that Josh asserted as much, a part of me feels that the statement regarding contacting richard, riling up the peons and going bananas verbally says that Josh hid it from RD and passed it along as a simple harmless change.

Further, if Richard did know the full implications of what was done and was content with the outcome, I would only lose a bit of personal respect for him; I still love his books, and I am cuddling with my copy of the Selfish Gene right now(my father thinks I love Richard more than him...)

:huggeroo:
Exactly my position on RD... :tup:
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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by Peter Brown » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:56 am

but Josh and Andrew have deleted the New Forum discussion, because both members and staff were very unhappy with the decision,
Darkchilde
The ghost of Stalin lives on it seems, the smoking gun in his hand gives a well understood meaning to the comments ‘there was few dissenters to the new regime’.
We also tried telling Josh and Andrew what the forum community is. But they did not listen,
This of course is the meat behind the reforming of RDF. No doubt a new philosophy and direction was felt by them to be more important than what was currently there. My best guess is a sanitised and restrictive strait jacketed user base, which might suit an academical ideal, but as the majority of the world is the great unwashed one can safely say RDF as it was is now dead and consigned to the dry dusty places few bother to visit.
I knew certain areas of the forum quite well, and the community therein.
Sadly I know your pain, as years ago I used to be a sysop for the UK based forums in CompuServe which died a slow death after AOL got their hands on it. All I can offer as consolation is you know the good times you made and few have the opportunity to make that happen in their lifetime.

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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by 95Theses » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:57 am

JimC wrote:
Ameri Boi wrote:I'm still waiting on confirmation that RD knew of what was happening. Despite the fact that Josh asserted as much, a part of me feels that the statement regarding contacting richard, riling up the peons and going bananas verbally says that Josh hid it from RD and passed it along as a simple harmless change.

Further, if Richard did know the full implications of what was done and was content with the outcome, I would only lose a bit of personal respect for him; I still love his books, and I am cuddling with my copy of the Selfish Gene right now(my father thinks I love Richard more than him...)

:huggeroo:
Exactly my position on RD... :tup:
It's not my position.

I've always believed that the sort of person someone is and wether they are correct about stuff is entirely divorced. I happened to think that not only was RD correct he was also a really nice bloke.

If it turns out that he did order this trashing and burning wholesale of so many peoples work and commitment for years, then my respect for him as a person has gone down considerably, it doesn't mean I think he's all of a sudden wrong and I'm about to bow down to lord jeebus.
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell.

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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by Arse » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:59 am

I've just noticed they've removed my sig over there too! Cheeky fuckers, that sig has been there forever. Fuck Josh and Dawkins, I hate control freaks.
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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by JimC » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:01 am

95Theses wrote:
JimC wrote:
Ameri Boi wrote:I'm still waiting on confirmation that RD knew of what was happening. Despite the fact that Josh asserted as much, a part of me feels that the statement regarding contacting richard, riling up the peons and going bananas verbally says that Josh hid it from RD and passed it along as a simple harmless change.

Further, if Richard did know the full implications of what was done and was content with the outcome, I would only lose a bit of personal respect for him; I still love his books, and I am cuddling with my copy of the Selfish Gene right now(my father thinks I love Richard more than him...)

:huggeroo:
Exactly my position on RD... :tup:
It's not my position.

I've always believed that the sort of person someone is and wether they are correct about stuff is entirely divorced. I happened to think that not only was RD correct he was also a really nice bloke.

If it turns out that he did order this trashing and burning wholesale of so many peoples work and commitment for years, then my respect for him as a person has gone down considerably, it doesn't mean I think he's all of a sudden wrong and I'm about to bow down to lord jeebus.
Missed our point, I think, as both Ameriboi and myself have indicated we deeply respect RD for the books and position on atheism, while being disappointed in his handling of forum affairs, which seems pretty well your position...
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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by Thinking Aloud » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:02 am

Arse wrote:I've just noticed they've removed my sig over there too! Cheeky fuckers, that sig has been there forever. Fuck Josh and Dawkins, I hate control freaks.
All sigs have gone.

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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by klr » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:03 am

JimC wrote:
virphen wrote:
JimC wrote: I iz in a literary analogy mood... :shifty:
Iago to Dawkins' Othello?
I'm not sure RD deservews the same respect as Othello, vis-a-vis his handling of forum matters...

(I will never lose my respect for him as a science writer and atheist communicator, even if I disagree with the odd aspect of his position in those areas)
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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by Durro » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:03 am

Hi Guys,

As you know, I was - until this morning - one of the Moderators on the Richard Dawkins discussion forum, a forum with some 85,000 members of which some 20,000 were regularly active. We'd have up to 1000 members on-line at once and I believe recently became the #1 atheist forum on the internet in terms of traffic and membership numbers.

The forum was experiencing technical difficulties over the past several months because of high traffic volumes and limitations with the server's bandwidth and access to archived posts. The search function was disabled to try and cut down on database stress, but the system became more and more glitchy, with the dreaded "general error" message interfering with posts and Moderator functions. we tried cutting thread lengths down to 10 posts per page at CJ's suggestion, but this only reduced the errors, not eradicate them.

A decision was made to try and improve the situation and the Moderators were led to believe that a revamped forum with different software to phpBB would solve most or all of the issues. We were told for several weeks that we would have input into any new forum system, and that the current forum's content would be moved across to a new and better performing software platform. We were told that we would be able to help test-drive the new forum and help work out kinks in the system. It was going to be an extension of the front page and lose some of its forum feel, but we were assured that it would be largely business as usual with some minor changes.

The Mods put their heads together and came up with lists of functionality that needed to be preserved and issues regarding transfer of data. We kept getting non-committal and vague reassurances that changes weren't too far off and that we'd be involved when the time came. The Mods tried to stress the importance of the forum's culture and relationships and how we didn't want to see them lost. A week or two ago, Chalkers (Andrew, the tech weenie) commented that we didn't need a Tech Support section, as members could be directed to an external software FAQ site. We pointed out that the Tech Support forum was mostly about rule interpretation, challenging warnings or suggesting improvements and other feedback from the membership, and wasn't a simple "how to operate the software" tech forum. This was met with silence.

Right up till Monday 22nd Feb, the Mods were being reassured that positive change was forthcoming and that we'd be involved at the right time.

Instead, we have had a fait accompli thrust upon us at no notice, and when the membership and Moderators were quite rightly aggrieved and posted their feelings, Josh apparently took it upon himself to shut down the forum. He has also erased several critical posts made by Moderators on the public forum and erased complete threads in which the very loyal and enthusiatic membership were expressing their shock at the sudden turn of events. We all found ourselves locked out of the forum with little or no notice.

Josh quite condescendingly ordered the Moderation team to not contact Richard Dawkins, to not express any dissent and to not make waves. His methods were very heavy handed, offensive and have caused great offence to many members, a lot of whom will not be returning to any future forum that Dawkins may be setting up.

I view this as tragic, as the discussion forums were a vehicle for knowledgable members to propagate and continue Dawkins' fine work in spreading rational thought. We saw many, many fence sitters wavering in their faith come down on the side of reason, and converted dozens and dozens of faithful from their superstitions. Some of the posts were remarkable examples of good science, logic and reason, and now all this has been lost. In 30 days time, they will be gone forever when the database is permanently taken off line.

The forum had a wonderful community feel about it and catered for a range of people from all backgrounds from all over the world. Many dipped their toes in socially, and ended up becoming involved in great discussions about faith, philosophy, current affairs and science. Members have actually met each other via this forum and forged wonderful friendships. Sciwoman even met her fiance through this site.

I think that they are greatly diminishing the broad appeal of the forum by moving to a strictly science based front page comments section. They are risking losing many, many supporters and the good work that they do, both on on behalf of and in Richard's name.

Josh and Andrew's apparent lack of understanding of the forum dynamics and the depth of feeling within the 85,000 strong membership is pitiful, and they have not done Richard any favours with their actions.

I am very saddened in the events today. The membership and moderators have been dismissed with apparent casualness and Richard Dawkins has probably lost many supporters and advocates.

The fundies must be rejoicing at the end of a major tool against their BS.

:tdown:

Durro

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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by klr » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:04 am

riddlemethis wrote:
JimC wrote:
Jerome23 wrote:
hackenslash wrote:Speaking of book, and as I forgot to respond earlier, I really don't know what'll happen to the book idea now. I probably have enough in the boilerplate to get something useful, but I'm not really sure I have the heart for it now. This has taken the wind out of my sails a bit. I'll mull it over for a few days.

Another person betrayed and shat upon, after huge amounts of work. Does Dawkins actually know what is going on though? :(

j x
As I said on another post, one could see Josh as a Wormtongue to RD's aging Theoden...

Or another analogy is Josh as Cardinal Richlieu...

Or RD (pissed of at a forum that has grown beyond his control) saying "who will rid me of this turbulent forum" :hehe:

I iz in a literary analogy mood... :shifty:
Wormtongue! Right-on. I thought he was a snivelling arsehole the last time things blew up, but at least the provocation was clear & the Admin hand was definitely forced. This is a whole other thing & maybe Richard will get wind of how appallingly people think he has acted in this instance. He needs to understand that you never send a boy to do a mans job. The least he owed the forum community was a direct communique (like last time) and the opportunity to finish things with some grace. Certainly people would have been angry, but with a rational explanation from his desk about this move, I think people could have made appropriate departures. To treat the mods the way they have is nothing short of despicable.

Jim, I assume you'll be there on the Sunday of the Convention. Will you join me in a silent protest when Richard takes the stage, greeted by the backs of his disenfranchised community?
Oh to be a fly on the wall there ... :twisted:
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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by SevenOfNine » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:08 am

I agree Jim, the cluster-fuck of the forum does not detract from RD's academic work. I had 11,000 posts on that forum, and many had a lot more than that. The number of hours put in by the regulars is incalculable. So RD has disrespected many thousands in a very fundamental way. I just can't believe he is totally ignorant about what Josh and Chalkers were doing.....he would have intervened by now. He is busy and all, but he seems a sharp guy so it is unlikely he was hoodwinked. That leads me to think that at least some of this bad shit might have come from RD himself :dono:
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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by klr » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:09 am

Flora wrote:
Rum wrote: They were originally going to leave it open for 30 days but appear to have been rather unprepared for the reaction...so much for planning then. And consideration.
They were informed a while ago about possible and probable reactions from the membership if they just threw the forum away. They also experienced a bit of a rough ride from staff in the last few weeks so they knew that people would go bananas if they dumped the forum.
Bloody hell. As if they even needed telling in the first place. But they were told anyway, and still went ahead. :dono:
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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by SevenOfNine » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:12 am

Durro wrote:Hi Guys,

As you know, I was - until this morning - one of the Moderators on the Richard Dawkins discussion forum, a forum with some 85,000 members of which some 20,000 were regularly active. We'd have up to 1000 members on-line at once and I believe recently became the #1 atheist forum on the internet in terms of traffic and membership numbers.

The forum was experiencing technical difficulties over the past several months because of high traffic volumes and limitations with the server's bandwidth and access to archived posts. The search function was disabled to try and cut down on database stress, but the system became more and more glitchy, with the dreaded "general error" message interfering with posts and Moderator functions. we tried cutting thread lengths down to 10 posts per page at CJ's suggestion, but this only reduced the errors, not eradicate them.

A decision was made to try and improve the situation and the Moderators were led to believe that a revamped forum with different software to phpBB would solve most or all of the issues. We were told for several weeks that we would have input into any new forum system, and that the current forum's content would be moved across to a new and better performing software platform. We were told that we would be able to help test-drive the new forum and help work out kinks in the system. It was going to be an extension of the front page and lose some of its forum feel, but we were assured that it would be largely business as usual with some minor changes.

The Mods put their heads together and came up with lists of functionality that needed to be preserved and issues regarding transfer of data. We kept getting non-committal and vague reassurances that changes weren't too far off and that we'd be involved when the time came. The Mods tried to stress the importance of the forum's culture and relationships and how we didn't want to see them lost. A week or two ago, Chalkers (Andrew, the tech weenie) commented that we didn't need a Tech Support section, as members could be directed to an external software FAQ site. We pointed out that the Tech Support forum was mostly about rule interpretation, challenging warnings or suggesting improvements and other feedback from the membership, and wasn't a simple "how to operate the software" tech forum. This was met with silence.

Right up till Monday 22nd Feb, the Mods were being reassured that positive change was forthcoming and that we'd be involved at the right time.

Instead, we have had a fait accompli thrust upon us at no notice, and when the membership and Moderators were quite rightly aggrieved and posted their feelings, Josh apparently took it upon himself to shut down the forum. He has also erased several critical posts made by Moderators on the public forum and erased complete threads in which the very loyal and enthusiatic membership were expressing their shock at the sudden turn of events. We all found ourselves locked out of the forum with little or no notice.

Josh quite condescendingly ordered the Moderation team to not contact Richard Dawkins, to not express any dissent and to not make waves. His methods were very heavy handed, offensive and have caused great offence to many members, a lot of whom will not be returning to any future forum that Dawkins may be setting up.

I view this as tragic, as the discussion forums were a vehicle for knowledgable members to propagate and continue Dawkins' fine work in spreading rational thought. We saw many, many fence sitters wavering in their faith come down on the side of reason, and converted dozens and dozens of faithful from their superstitions. Some of the posts were remarkable examples of good science, logic and reason, and now all this has been lost. In 30 days time, they will be gone forever when the database is permanently taken off line.

The forum had a wonderful community feel about it and catered for a range of people from all backgrounds from all over the world. Many dipped their toes in socially, and ended up becoming involved in great discussions about faith, philosophy, current affairs and science. Members have actually met each other via this forum and forged wonderful friendships. Sciwoman even met her fiance through this site.

I think that they are greatly diminishing the broad appeal of the forum by moving to a strictly science based front page comments section. They are risking losing many, many supporters and the good work that they do, both on on behalf of and in Richard's name.

Josh and Andrew's apparent lack of understanding of the forum dynamics and the depth of feeling within the 85,000 strong membership is pitiful, and they have not done Richard any favours with their actions.

I am very saddened in the events today. The membership and moderators have been dismissed with apparent casualness and Richard Dawkins has probably lost many supporters and advocates.

The fundies must be rejoicing at the end of a major tool against their BS.

:tdown:

Durro

Very well said Durro! :tup: :tup:
Beliefs Are Irrational, we will assimilate you :=)
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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by Darkchilde » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:12 am

klr wrote:
Flora wrote:
Rum wrote: They were originally going to leave it open for 30 days but appear to have been rather unprepared for the reaction...so much for planning then. And consideration.
They were informed a while ago about possible and probable reactions from the membership if they just threw the forum away. They also experienced a bit of a rough ride from staff in the last few weeks so they knew that people would go bananas if they dumped the forum.
Bloody hell. As if they even needed telling in the first place. But they were told anyway, and still went ahead. :dono:
Not to mention that they deleted two accounts of two long standing members: CJ and Mazille. All their posts gone, all their contributions to the forum. This amounts to something like 13000 posts. This is outrageous.
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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by FBM » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:13 am

Durro wrote:Hi Guys,

As you know, I was - until this morning - one of the Moderators on the Richard Dawkins discussion forum...
:tdown:

Durro
So that's the lowdown in a single post. Thanks for that, Durro. :cheers: I was just getting bits and pieces from here and there.

And yes, wrt the events themselves... :tdown:
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Re: Announcement about RDF

Post by JimC » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:14 am

Durro wrote:Hi Guys,

As you know, I was - until this morning - one of the Moderators on the Richard Dawkins discussion forum, a forum with some 85,000 members of which some 20,000 were regularly active. We'd have up to 1000 members on-line at once and I believe recently became the #1 atheist forum on the internet in terms of traffic and membership numbers.

The forum was experiencing technical difficulties over the past several months because of high traffic volumes and limitations with the server's bandwidth and access to archived posts. The search function was disabled to try and cut down on database stress, but the system became more and more glitchy, with the dreaded "general error" message interfering with posts and Moderator functions. we tried cutting thread lengths down to 10 posts per page at CJ's suggestion, but this only reduced the errors, not eradicate them.

A decision was made to try and improve the situation and the Moderators were led to believe that a revamped forum with different software to phpBB would solve most or all of the issues. We were told for several weeks that we would have input into any new forum system, and that the current forum's content would be moved across to a new and better performing software platform. We were told that we would be able to help test-drive the new forum and help work out kinks in the system. It was going to be an extension of the front page and lose some of its forum feel, but we were assured that it would be largely business as usual with some minor changes.

The Mods put their heads together and came up with lists of functionality that needed to be preserved and issues regarding transfer of data. We kept getting non-committal and vague reassurances that changes weren't too far off and that we'd be involved when the time came. The Mods tried to stress the importance of the forum's culture and relationships and how we didn't want to see them lost. A week or two ago, Chalkers (Andrew, the tech weenie) commented that we didn't need a Tech Support section, as members could be directed to an external software FAQ site. We pointed out that the Tech Support forum was mostly about rule interpretation, challenging warnings or suggesting improvements and other feedback from the membership, and wasn't a simple "how to operate the software" tech forum. This was met with silence.

Right up till Monday 22nd Feb, the Mods were being reassured that positive change was forthcoming and that we'd be involved at the right time.

Instead, we have had a fait accompli thrust upon us at no notice, and when the membership and Moderators were quite rightly aggrieved and posted their feelings, Josh apparently took it upon himself to shut down the forum. He has also erased several critical posts made by Moderators on the public forum and erased complete threads in which the very loyal and enthusiatic membership were expressing their shock at the sudden turn of events. We all found ourselves locked out of the forum with little or no notice.

Josh quite condescendingly ordered the Moderation team to not contact Richard Dawkins, to not express any dissent and to not make waves. His methods were very heavy handed, offensive and have caused great offence to many members, a lot of whom will not be returning to any future forum that Dawkins may be setting up.

I view this as tragic, as the discussion forums were a vehicle for knowledgable members to propagate and continue Dawkins' fine work in spreading rational thought. We saw many, many fence sitters wavering in their faith come down on the side of reason, and converted dozens and dozens of faithful from their superstitions. Some of the posts were remarkable examples of good science, logic and reason, and now all this has been lost. In 30 days time, they will be gone forever when the database is permanently taken off line.

The forum had a wonderful community feel about it and catered for a range of people from all backgrounds from all over the world. Many dipped their toes in socially, and ended up becoming involved in great discussions about faith, philosophy, current affairs and science. Members have actually met each other via this forum and forged wonderful friendships. Sciwoman even met her fiance through this site.

I think that they are greatly diminishing the broad appeal of the forum by moving to a strictly science based front page comments section. They are risking losing many, many supporters and the good work that they do, both on on behalf of and in Richard's name.

Josh and Andrew's apparent lack of understanding of the forum dynamics and the depth of feeling within the 85,000 strong membership is pitiful, and they have not done Richard any favours with their actions.

I am very saddened in the events today. The membership and moderators have been dismissed with apparent casualness and Richard Dawkins has probably lost many supporters and advocates.

The fundies must be rejoicing at the end of a major tool against their BS.

:tdown:

Durro
I think that this post is one of the clearest, most level-headed and yet most heartfelt comments on the whole sorry affair, well said Durro...

Even though I cast myself (mostly) adrift from RDF many moons ago, I regret the loss of a vibrant community of science and reason. I hope some aspects of that community will re-emerge in other fora, including this one, but hold little hope that a new, teflon-coated corporate-style RDF will attract the loyalty of anybody whose loyalty is worth attracting...
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