FAO Geoff! Let the LotR debate begin!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The Uruk hai were created by crossing Orcs and Goblin men.. In the movie you saw Saruman pulling them out of the membrane where he was growing them under Isengard... I think it was more sinster.. Although there is debate about whether goblins and orcs are different.. I think they were.

I didn't say he couldn't come up with gunpowder.. however I don't think gunpowder would be in keeping with Tolkien's world.. what next? guns?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

One of the things that annoys me with LOTR debates is how people seem to think there are gay undertones to everything, like Sam & Frodo's relationship. Like people can't love each other without it having to be sexual. In India male friends walk around holding hands.. it's no big deal.

To me the film is about the sacrifices made in war and the way the everyman can be the hero - as everyone knows the real hero of the book is Sam. And it is about a subject that is one that I always find very moving,: unquestioning and unwavering friendship, loyalty and trust.

It's summed up by a scene in "Fellowship" in the scene when Sam & Frodo are running away from the black rider with Merry & Pippin, and Frodo says to M&P that he and Sam have to leave the Shire and get to Bree.. Merry, no questions asked, just says "Buckleberry ferry, follow me!".. it's as simple as that.

[owtth]

One of the things that annoys me with LOTR debates is how people seem to think there are gay undertones to everything, like Sam & Frodo's relationship. Like people can't love each other without it having to be sexual. In India male friends walk around holding hands.. it's no big deal.

To me the film is about the sacrifices made in war and the way the everyman can be the hero - as everyone knows the real hero of the book is Sam. And it is about a subject that is one that I always find very moving,: unquestioning and unwavering friendship, loyalty and trust.

It's summed up by a scene in "Fellowship" in the scene when Sam & Frodo are running away from the black rider with Merry & Pippin, and Frodo says to M&P that he and Sam have to leave the Shire and get to Bree.. Merry, no questions asked, just says "Buckleberry ferry, follow me!".. it's as simple as that.

Even though Tolkien always denied that this story was strongly influenced by either world war I´ve always thought that the bond shown between the various characters must have been based upon the sort of relationships that can only exist between men who have faced incredible horrors together.

[Twoflower]

One of the things that annoys me with LOTR debates is how people seem to think there are gay undertones to everything, like Sam & Frodo's relationship. Like people can't love each other without it having to be sexual. In India male friends walk around holding hands.. it's no big deal.

To me the film is about the sacrifices made in war and the way the everyman can be the hero - as everyone knows the real hero of the book is Sam. And it is about a subject that is one that I always find very moving,: unquestioning and unwavering friendship, loyalty and trust.

It's summed up by a scene in "Fellowship" in the scene when Sam & Frodo are running away from the black rider with Merry & Pippin, and Frodo says to M&P that he and Sam have to leave the Shire and get to Bree.. Merry, no questions asked, just says "Buckleberry ferry, follow me!".. it's as simple as that.

Even though Tolkien always denied that this story was strongly influenced by either world war I´ve always thought that the bond shown between the various characters must have been based upon the sort of relationships that can only exist between men who have faced incredible horrors together.

I have thought about that also. If he hadnt fought in any war than he wouldnt have been able to write about the closeness they had shared.

[Elessarina]

Even though Tolkien always denied that this story was strongly influenced by either world war I´ve always thought that the bond shown between the various characters must have been based upon the sort of relationships that can only exist between men who have faced incredible horrors together.

Tolkien saw all his friends die in WW1 and survived the experience himself.. you can't come out of that and not be influenced surely..

[Trolldor]

If he said it didn't, then it didn't. Maybe his personality and creativity was - what he focused on, but the story wasn't a parable or related to them.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If he said it didn't, then it didn't. Maybe his personality and creativity was - what he focused on, but the story wasn't a parable or related to them.

Just because he didn't say it, doesn't mean that it ain't true.

I saw a long list of likely parallels once, and still remember a few.

Shire = England.
Mordor = Germany
Gondor = France.

[Trolldor]

Suggested parables are irrelevant, someone else's adamant assertion is nonsense. The only person who can give a true recount of the intent and meaning of a text is the author, and if the author says 'no' then that's the answer.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Suggested parables are irrelevant, someone else's adamant assertion is nonsense. The only person who can give a true recount of the intent and meaning of a text is the author, and if the author says 'no' then that's the answer.

Why would I believe someone who writes about elves and goblins?

[Elessarina]

If he said it didn't, then it didn't. Maybe his personality and creativity was - what he focused on, but the story wasn't a parable or related to them.

a lot of the ideas came from him and friends he saw die there

[Trolldor]

Maybe, El, but that's on a personal level. It may have influence how he wrote and what sort of things he focused on, but an unconscious influence is not the same as an over-arching parallel between a text and an event.

[Elessarina]

Maybe, El, but that's on a personal level. It may have influence how he wrote and what sort of things he focused on, but an unconscious influence is not the same as an over-arching parallel between a text and an event.

why does there have to be?

[Trolldor]

...What?

[Elessarina]

why does there have to be an over-arching parallel between a text and an event.?

[Trolldor]

why does there have to be an over-arching parallel between a text and an event.?

There doesn't.

I've been arguing there's not.