Fail

[Don't Panic]

Around 60 years ago many camps throughout Eastern Europe were discovered. They were used to exterminate over 6 million people. Six million, the worst genocide in history. This is an incredible number, and we can't even begin to relate with what happened to those poor innocent people. And yet, you people claim to have the moral higher ground. You assert that my behaviour is downright wrong. Apparently I show complete apathy to everyone around me.


The Holocaust is possibly the worst thing in the brief history of civilisation--a thing which depends entirely on the morality of individuals.

Yet you people live everyday of your life without thinking of the Holocaust, You function normally in spite of what happened. Never does it enter your head on a day to day basis. You don't care. You don't give a shit and neither do I. We all know what happened, but despite it's significance we fail to relate. It just isn't important in walking to work, or grabbing something to eat. Let me remind you: 6 million men, women and children died in the most horrible ways imaginable. This doesn't stop you in your tracks ever
.

You're apathetic when you shouldn't be. But the Holocaust has no implication for you personally. Jewish or not, it doesn't physically affect you. So why feel so chivalrous when you condemn me for calling someone fat (for example)?


We're all nihilists here, except you people seem to have the conceit that your the moral compass that you'd like to think you have matters. It fucking doesn't. I apply my nihilism to reality, I'm closer to it and yet you claim superiority?

Between 20 and 25 Million Soviet citizens were killed during the second World War, with over half of that number being civilians, and many of the soldiers being conscripts who had no choice but to be there. If you are so concerned about the death of 6 million Jews, why aren't you concerned about this?

[Lozzer]

Do you think you could actually change the title to something more informative ... something that might actually do justice what you are trying to discuss? "Fail" is just an all-purpose term with no particular meaning, and conveys no sense of gravity or seriousness.

Nothing is serious.

[Lozzer]

Between 20 and 25 Million Soviet citizens were killed during the second World War, with over half of that number being civilians, and many of the soldiers being conscripts who had no choice but to be there. If you are so concerned about the death of 6 million Jews, why aren't you concerned about this?

No, what happened during WW2 never crosses my mind during my usual day.


All of you claim moral superiority, but on an average day you have no concern for what happened to 6 million people. But it shouldn't be irrelevant, the exact same thing is happening across the world right now. A lot of innocent people are getting killed, in say, Afghanistan. I accept that I don't care what's happening over there--the thought rarely crosses my mind--but you have no excuse. Why don't you help? Well it's because you don't care either.
When I say 'don't care' I don't mean you ignore past/present events on purpose, if it has no personal implication so you couldn't care less.

[Sisifo]

Between 20 and 25 Million Soviet citizens were killed during the second World War, with over half of that number being civilians, and many of the soldiers being conscripts who had no choice but to be there. If you are so concerned about the death of 6 million Jews, why aren't you concerned about this?

No, what happened during WW2 never crosses my mind during my usual day.


All of you claim moral superiority, but on an average day you have no concern for what happened to 6 million people. But it shouldn't be irrelevant, the exact same thing is happening across the world right now. A lot of innocent people are getting killed, in say, Afghanistan. I accept that I don't care what's happening over there--the thought rarely crosses my mind--but you have no excuse. Why don't you help? Well it's because you don't care either.
When I say 'don't care' I don't mean you ignore past/present events on purpose, if it has no personal implication so you couldn't care less.

Who are you addressing this message? who is the "you" mentioned?

[Rum]

Between 20 and 25 Million Soviet citizens were killed during the second World War, with over half of that number being civilians, and many of the soldiers being conscripts who had no choice but to be there. If you are so concerned about the death of 6 million Jews, why aren't you concerned about this?

No, what happened during WW2 never crosses my mind during my usual day.


All of you claim moral superiority, but on an average day you have no concern for what happened to 6 million people. But it shouldn't be irrelevant, the exact same thing is happening across the world right now. A lot of innocent people are getting killed, in say, Afghanistan. I accept that I don't care what's happening over there--the thought rarely crosses my mind--but you have no excuse. Why don't you help? Well it's because you don't care either.
When I say 'don't care' I don't mean you ignore past/present events on purpose, if it has no personal implication so you couldn't care less.

I am avoiding personalising this, though your arrogant assumptions about what does and does not occupy people thoughts and concerns deserves a swift kick up the arse.

Personally I think about such things regularly. I also challenge behaviour and values which contribute to the coarsening of attitudes which could lead to oppression and victimisation of the sort that led to Nazism. I hold values which are a direct consequence of the fight against the evils of fascism and Nazism and ever fibre of my being hates that stuff.

Do I think about the holocaust ever day? No - but I do regularly. Does the fact that I don't mean I don't care. of course it doesn't and how dare you suggest that I and others here don't.

You put your foot in the dogshit every chance you get.

[Lozzer]

Between 20 and 25 Million Soviet citizens were killed during the second World War, with over half of that number being civilians, and many of the soldiers being conscripts who had no choice but to be there. If you are so concerned about the death of 6 million Jews, why aren't you concerned about this?

No, what happened during WW2 never crosses my mind during my usual day.


All of you claim moral superiority, but on an average day you have no concern for what happened to 6 million people. But it shouldn't be irrelevant, the exact same thing is happening across the world right now. A lot of innocent people are getting killed, in say, Afghanistan. I accept that I don't care what's happening over there--the thought rarely crosses my mind--but you have no excuse. Why don't you help? Well it's because you don't care either.
When I say 'don't care' I don't mean you ignore past/present events on purpose, if it has no personal implication so you couldn't care less.

Who are you addressing this message? who is the "you" mentioned?

Every Tom Dick and Harry

[Lozzer]

I am avoiding personalising this, though your arrogant assumptions about what does and does not occupy people thoughts and concerns deserves a swift kick up the arse.

Personally I think about such things regularly. I also challenge behaviour and values which contribute to the coarsening of attitudes which could lead to oppression and victimisation of the sort that led to Nazism. I hold values which are a direct consequence of the fight against the evils of fascism and Nazism and ever fibre of my being hates that stuff.

Do I think about the holocaust ever day? No - but I do regularly. Does the fact that I don't mean I don't care. of course it doesn't and how dare you suggest that I and others here don't.

You put your foot in the dogshit every chance you get.

The Holocaust is only just one example, and the easiest.

And as of yet, none of you have addressed my argument other than whining how much you do think of the holocaust. It's funny, you jump to defend where your attention really is, but by doing so you strengthen my argument.Why aren't you so concerned with current massacres? You can stop them if you tried, but you don't think about them.

[Azathoth]

three names spring to mind every time someone starts saying what an evil bastard Hitler was. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. Was there a world war to get rid of these evil bastards? Nope. If Hitler had stayed in Germany nobody would have batted an eyelid about him gassing as many Jews as he wanted to. As with most wars WWII was about land.

[Rum]

I am avoiding personalising this, though your arrogant assumptions about what does and does not occupy people thoughts and concerns deserves a swift kick up the arse.

Personally I think about such things regularly. I also challenge behaviour and values which contribute to the coarsening of attitudes which could lead to oppression and victimisation of the sort that led to Nazism. I hold values which are a direct consequence of the fight against the evils of fascism and Nazism and ever fibre of my being hates that stuff.

Do I think about the holocaust ever day? No - but I do regularly. Does the fact that I don't mean I don't care. of course it doesn't and how dare you suggest that I and others here don't.

You put your foot in the dogshit every chance you get.

The Holocaust is only just one example, and the easiest.

And as of yet, none of you have addressed my argument other than whining how much you do think of the holocaust. It's funny, you jump to defend where your attention really is, but by doing so you strengthen my argument.Why aren't you so concerned with current massacres? You can stop them if you tried, but you don't think about them.

I would like to politely invite you to go fuck yourself until it shakes your brains up enough for them to be of some use to you..and perhaps even the rest of us.

[Azathoth]

I am avoiding personalising this, though your arrogant assumptions about what does and does not occupy people thoughts and concerns deserves a swift kick up the arse.

Personally I think about such things regularly. I also challenge behaviour and values which contribute to the coarsening of attitudes which could lead to oppression and victimisation of the sort that led to Nazism. I hold values which are a direct consequence of the fight against the evils of fascism and Nazism and ever fibre of my being hates that stuff.

Do I think about the holocaust ever day? No - but I do regularly. Does the fact that I don't mean I don't care. of course it doesn't and how dare you suggest that I and others here don't.

You put your foot in the dogshit every chance you get.

The Holocaust is only just one example, and the easiest.

And as of yet, none of you have addressed my argument other than whining how much you do think of the holocaust. It's funny, you jump to defend where your attention really is, but by doing so you strengthen my argument.Why aren't you so concerned with current massacres? You can stop them if you tried, but you don't think about them.

I would like to politely invite you to go fuck yourself until it shakes your brains up enough for them to be of some use to you..and perhaps even the rest of us.

[klr]

Do you think you could actually change the title to something more informative ... something that might actually do justice what you are trying to discuss? "Fail" is just an all-purpose term with no particular meaning, and conveys no sense of gravity or seriousness.

Nothing is serious.

Make up your mind please.

[JOZeldenrust]

I agree almost completely with Lozzer. Certainly mass murder isn't a direct concern of mine, and I doubt it's a direct concern of many people on this board. As such, I don't care about it. People really tend to get into hissy fits over Lozzers antics, when in practice they're not hurting anyone. They might be offensive and tasteless, but that shouldn't really matter now should it?

I think a lot of opinions voices on this board are supremely stupid, and quite often offensive. That's my problem, not the problem of the poster voicing his opinion. So while I don't like people making jokes about abusing people who are dependant of others, or glorifying violence, or portraying religious people as fundamentally irrational, I don't disapprove of any of those things. Do I think you should make fun of rape victims? No. Do I think you should be allowed to make fun of rape victims? Definitely yes.

Mind you, I am by no means a nihilist. I do think about the suffering of other people, theorising about past instances of violence and agonising over contemporary ones. I just think that interfering with violent conflicts directly isn't the most effective way of alleviate suffering.

/preach mode.

[Rum]

I agree almost completely with Lozzer. Certainly mass murder isn't a direct concern of mine, and I doubt it's a direct concern of many people on this board. As such, I don't care about it. People really tend to get into hissy fits over Lozzers antics, when in practice they're not hurting anyone. They might be offensive and tasteless, but that shouldn't really matter now should it?

Of course it matters! Are you suggesting we simply ignore offensive and tasteless posts? That's ridiculous.

And it mass murder does not concern you I suggest your humanity needs a little attention.

Sheesh.

[floppit]

I think I get what you're saying, this is the first time I've ever seen you post anything I can be arsed to seriously respond to.

In some ways I think you're right, us human beings place ourselves in the central position when considering what is or isn't fair - if we could achieve true objectivity would we be able to spend £400 on a new telly knowing that £400 given to a vaccination programme in the developing world would save children's lives? Most of us people would save a child over our telly if the game played out in our direct visual field, but distance whether time or space blunts what knowledge should keep sharp. I don't have a problem including myself in that, I've wasted enough money in a lifetime to have helped build a school, stop a child's slow death, or give to research on alzheimer's (and SHIT - I see that most working days!). The bottom line is that I don't have any excuse but what I don't get, where I part company from the sentiments in your post, is HOW the above means I ought to give up on the small things my small human brain does effectively perceive?

You're right about experience, I've experienced bullying, I watched my family torn up from it so I fight it, there are so many things where I keep my fingers in my ears singing lalalalala that the ones where I can see and feel it matters MORE NOT LESS to tackle.

If we say our human weakness means we should not fight any of the harms that do penetrate our thick skulls then we will repeat and repeat again the holocaust. The fat girl matters, she matters because we feel for her and that remains our only slim fecking hope to hang on to something which also exist in us human beings - compassion.

While I'll hold no punches in being plain about where people (like me) fall short, it is also worth remembering that the other side is just as real, while people killed the Jews other people died trying to save them - and believe me, it may have started for king and country but once the secrets were out for many men fighting it did become about saving them. For all the bleakness of what we ignore, there's also the reality a person will even die for what they perceive.

[devogue]

I agree almost completely with Lozzer. Certainly mass murder isn't a direct concern of mine, and I doubt it's a direct concern of many people on this board. As such, I don't care about it.

I started a topic on RDF called "Nuke the Middle East" in September 2008 - it has been fucking deleted by some dickhead over there (I would love to have been able to refer to it, but it seems it was such a verboten subject it was deleted ).

The OP in the thread stated that I didn't give a shit about Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and the whole of the Middle East - that for all I cared those countries could be nuked out of existence, as long as my own family, friends and lifestyle were unaffected. Even if 36 million people died my response would probably be "How awful..." and I would resume eating my cornflakes... There is evidence that my mindset is widespread. How much coverage does the Western media give to the fact that almost a billion people in the world today are undernourished? - practically none. That's not the media's fault - they are in the business of selling newspapers to people like me, and they have found that people like me are more likely to buy their paper if there is a story about Katie Price and Peter Andre three or four times a week, or if there is a story about rising or falling house prices. That doesn't mean I am intrinsically evil or selfish, it just means I don't care enough.

At least 36 million people across the world will starve to death in the next twelve months (I actually had to look that staggeringly awful statistic up), yet the UK public (for example) is more concerned about the fate of Marcus the fucking Sheep:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... -chop.html

And we let incredibly rich people like Bono, Paul McCartney, Sting and Chris Martin fucking lecture us on poverty without ever throwing rotten fruit, bricks, petrol bombs etc at them like they deserve.

While I admit my OP on RDF was provocative and I was accused of trolling, I was at pains to explain that my point was absolutely genuine - Ayaan will back me up because she reopened the thread after initial concerns, but I kept being jumped on and verbally abused by a number of people.

I give £100 a month to World Vision to sponsor a number of poor children - what I'm really doing is salving my own conscience because I could piss £100 up the wall in two hours on a Friday night. If I really cared I would have just enough money to keep a roof over my head, feed and clothe my family and pay my bills and the rest would go to charity - but that's not what happens, so I don't care at a level were it is practical and helpful. My actions condemn me.

People really tend to get into hissy fits over Lozzers antics, when in practice they're not hurting anyone. They might be offensive and tasteless, but that shouldn't really matter now should it?

It should matter - we are a community and it's in our interests that we get along and don't rip each others throats out. That's not to say that we can't debate and argue like mad (I happen to think this is a cracking thread) and get really pissed off with each other but sometimes "offensiveness" and "tastelessness" can be needlessly provocative and create genuine personal hurt - that in itself is not really a problem because we all fuck up and put our foot in it from time to time, but all it takes is a quick "oops...sorry" to move on. I don't think there is any moral equivalence between the question of offence being caused on this forum and our thoughts regarding issues such as genocide.

I think a lot of opinions voices on this board are supremely stupid, and quite often offensive. That's my problem, not the problem of the poster voicing his opinion. So while I don't like people making jokes about abusing people who are dependant of others, or glorifying violence, or portraying religious people as fundamentally irrational, I don't disapprove of any of those things.

I think there is a difference between sharing a malevolent delight in the blameless misfortune of others and something like joking about the irrationality of religious people - it's a question of fairness (if a religious person calls foul they can argue against their perceived irrationalilty whereas a child with Down's Syndrome can not).

Do I think you should make fun of rape victims? No. Do I think you should be allowed to make fun of rape victims? Definitely yes.

I agree with you to an extent. The trouble is what happens when Member A starts making fun about rape victims here and Member B is a rape victim? Do we just tell Member B that while Member A is a dick he has every right to make fun of rape victims because he is not talking specifically about her? Such an approach ignores intangibles such as the sense of community, warmth, friendship and whether people have the right to enjoy posting here without having their noses rubbed in it by people who are being gratuitious just for the sake of it.

Mind you, I am by no means a nihilist. I do think about the suffering of other people, theorising about past instances of violence and agonising over contemporary ones. I just think that interfering with violent conflicts directly isn't the most effective way of alleviate suffering.

I am the same - I think about injustice and hardship in the world and it upsets me, but my actions show that I have chosen not to act on my upset. I prefer to spend my money and time on my own well being and pleasure. In so many ways people like me are indefensible and reprehensible.